Pronunciation influenced by native language

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s_allard
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Re: Pronunciation influenced by native language

Postby s_allard » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:40 pm

There is little I can add to PeterMollenberg's excellent detailed advice. However I would suggest working with a tutor, preferably face to face. In my experience teaching French, I have found that all students can quickly reproduce the most difficult sounds when they are corrected systematically and when they can see how (and hear how) the sounds are produced. For example speakers of English will initially have a terrible time distinguishing between roue and rue. But in a matter of minutes, most people will be able to produce the right sounds. Now producing the sounds correctly all the time is another matter of practice. This takes a lot of exposure and practice.

The same actually applies with all the other features of pronunciation such as syllable stress, intonation, etc. A couple of sessions with a good tutor should clear up the problems.
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Re: Pronunciation influenced by native language

Postby garyb » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:40 pm

In principle, I absolutely agree with the tutor recommendation and I believe that getting corrections from an expert is the "gold standard" for pronunciation improvement. I really don't want to start the whole tutor debate that's already been done to death, so let's avoid that, but I'm wondering how one would go about actually finding a tutor who can teach pronunciation? In my experience (lessons with a dozen or so tutors, some cheap and some not), very few know how to teach it, even among those who mention "pronunciation" or "accent reduction" in their profiles. The better ones are able to point out basic distinctions like "rue" and "roue", which is a start, but more subtle yet very important things like the different L sounds that PM mentioned or dental versus alveolar T, or anything about intonation, are well outside of the knowledge of the typical tutor whose training is mostly focused on grammar and vocabulary.

I've sometimes seen people recommend speech therapists or vocal coaches, as they tend to be more knowledgeable on phonetics than language teachers. Some of the best advice I've had was from a French-Italian (bilingual) acting teacher.
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Re: Pronunciation influenced by native language

Postby eido » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:48 pm

@tarvos: I read something similar on that study that Morgana linked. Something about prosody being the most important and easiest thing you can learn. I've gotten the feedback that I pronounce things mechanically and without fluidity, so there's probably something to this. (Keep in mind this is when I read aloud a script I've prepared, not when I've spoken something to somebody.)

@s_allard: I think that seems a fine recommendation. I just have to find the right tutor. Right price, right skills, you know?

@garyb: I need to learn all the special lingo about pronunciation. "Dental", "aveolar"... I don't know what these all mean. But if I can find somebody well-versed in this subject, I'd be willing to listen to their advice. I'm just not advanced enough to get help from an acting coach or speech therapist.
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Re: Pronunciation influenced by native language

Postby rdearman » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:03 pm

eido wrote:@garyb: I need to learn all the special lingo about pronunciation. "Dental", "aveolar"... I don't know what these all mean. But if I can find somebody well-versed in this subject, I'd be willing to listen to their advice. I'm just not advanced enough to get help from an acting coach or speech therapist.


Start here for some research. http://www.internationalphoneticalphabet.org/
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Re: Pronunciation influenced by native language

Postby eido » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:11 pm

@rdearman: I've been considering learning the IPA chart for a good month and a half now, but it's a bit overwhelming. I'm trying to figure out how to break it down into smaller, more manageable chunks so I can understand it. The only way I can see understanding it would come from knowing the definitions of the descriptions/adjectives of each sound, and then memorizing the sound. I guess I'd have to go systematically through the chart, maybe starting at the top left and working in a snake formation to the bottom right to absorb all the information. Thank you for trying to help, though. When my brain sees something it can't immediately make at least partial sense of, it gives up. Not a good quality. Especially when everyone says that anyone can do anything if they try hard enough.
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Re: Pronunciation influenced by native language

Postby tastyonions » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:22 pm

You don't have to learn the whole chart. Just learn the sounds relevant for Spanish: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/Spanish

Each sound listed there has a link to a page with a sound file you can play.
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Re: Pronunciation influenced by native language

Postby Chung » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:09 pm

eido wrote:@rdearman: I've been considering learning the IPA chart for a good month and a half now, but it's a bit overwhelming. I'm trying to figure out how to break it down into smaller, more manageable chunks so I can understand it. The only way I can see understanding it would come from knowing the definitions of the descriptions/adjectives of each sound, and then memorizing the sound. I guess I'd have to go systematically through the chart, maybe starting at the top left and working in a snake formation to the bottom right to absorb all the information. Thank you for trying to help, though. When my brain sees something it can't immediately make at least partial sense of, it gives up. Not a good quality. Especially when everyone says that anyone can do anything if they try hard enough.


A cheaper alternative to the tutor for improving pronunciation is some drilling with FSI Basic Spanish or similar. I haven't studied Spanish but your question reminds me of what I went through with Hungarian many years ago. Before getting "Teach Yourself Hungarian" as the first "real" course, I actually began learning the language by working with these tapes just to get a sense of the prosody and minimize the chance of making egregiously bad connections as a raw beginner between the letters and sounds lest I let things get fossilized to the point where I would be stuck speaking Hungarian (more) fluently with a brutal accent (as opposed to a mild one).

A tutor's advantage for learning pronunciation is definitely the instant feedback, although it might not work as advertised (and you'll be out of pocket for the sessions no matter the result) since it can be hard for the student to imitate the tutor because the student may simply not hear the tutor correctly in the first place. English phonological interference shows up especially strongly in vowels - we use diphthongs and/or reduce and/or (un)stress plain vowels in ways that can be jarring to others.

IPA can work but it's not for everyone when learning a language. For my part, I'm too lazy to deal with another convention, although I do consult an IPA chart when trying to get an idea of how to pronounce something in an unfamiliar language in the absence of a sound recording.
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Re: Pronunciation influenced by native language

Postby eido » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:11 pm

tastyonions wrote:You don't have to learn the whole chart. Just learn the sounds relevant for Spanish: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/Spanish

Each sound listed there has a link to a page with a sound file you can play.

Alright.

I knew I was hearing a 'th' sound on some Ds. Some of these are going to be hard to learn even with the example. I didn't even know some of this was going on. :shock: Like having a 'v' sound where there's an 'f' in the spelling. Hmm.

EDIT: I didn't see Chung's post before I posted this.

Chung wrote:A cheaper alternative to the tutor for improving pronunciation is some drilling with FSI Basic Spanish or similar. I haven't studied Spanish but your question reminds me of what I went through with Hungarian many years ago. Before getting "Teach Yourself Hungarian" as the first "real" course, I actually began learning the language by working with these tapes just to get a sense of the prosody and minimize the chance of making egregiously bad connections as a raw beginner between the letters and sounds lest I let things get fossilized to the point where I would be stuck speaking Hungarian (more) fluently with a brutal accent (as opposed to a mild one).

A tutor's advantage for learning pronunciation is definitely the instant feedback, although it might not work as advertised (and you'll be out of pocket for the sessions no matter the result) since it can be hard for the student to imitate the tutor because the student may simply not hear the tutor correctly in the first place. English phonological interference shows up especially strongly in vowels - we use diphthongs and/or reduce and/or (un)stress plain vowels in ways that can be jarring to others.

Ah, FSI. People seem to like it on this forum. I tried it but I didn't really know how to use it. I guess some Googling is in order.
The bolded part is the stuff that intrigues me. There's terms in there I don't know or have never really thought about before. I assume that most people haven't either. I'd like to really study more about it.
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Re: Pronunciation influenced by native language

Postby tarvos » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:21 pm

Tutors often know jack shit about phonology. You need someone specialized in phonology and prosody if you want to learn it.
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Re: Pronunciation influenced by native language

Postby Kraut » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:34 pm

Good overview for Spanish pronunciation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmeHgX5ywLc

EVERYTHING you need to know about Spanish pronunciation || María Español

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppN2lyJunGU

9 palabras que PRONUNCIAS MAL en ESPAÑOL || María Español

Here she has something on "discurso conectado/encadenado"
8 GREAT TECHNIQUES to improve your LISTENING SKILLS IN SPANISH

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1k50fHKors
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