(Spanish) Why and how is *Le* used in this sentence (8). And are there resources to practice examples like that ?

Ask specific questions about your target languages. Beginner questions welcome!
User avatar
Jaleel10
Blue Belt
Posts: 534
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:44 am
Location: Springbok, South Africa
Languages: Afrikaans (N), English (N)
Spanish (Advanced-B2)
x 963
Contact:

(Spanish) Why and how is *Le* used in this sentence (8). And are there resources to practice examples like that ?

Postby Jaleel10 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:33 am

Usually my grammar book uses verbs like enviar, dar, hablar, decir. Which is possibly easier for me to understand as an English speaker. But I've never seen it use in this context with cambiar and the indirect object being an inanimate object. If you asked me how to translate.* I'm only going to change the engine.* I would say. Solo voy a cambiar el motor. Any help would be appreciated. Indirect objects and I are the worst of enemies.

Photo from Jaleel.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
2 x

User avatar
tarvos
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2889
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:13 am
Location: The Lowlands
Languages: Native: NL, EN
Professional: ES, RU
Speak well: DE, FR, RO, EO, SV
Speak reasonably: IT, ZH, PT, NO, EL, CZ
Need improvement: PO, IS, HE, JP, KO, HU, FI
Passive: AF, DK, LAT
Dabbled in: BRT, ZH (SH), BG, EUS, ZH (CAN), and a whole lot more.
Language Log: http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/fo ... PN=1&TPN=1
x 6093
Contact:

Re: (Spanish) Why and how is *Le* used in this sentence (8). And are there resources to practice examples like that ?

Postby tarvos » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:02 am

Le = el coche

In Spanish you use a dative-type construction here.

(Solo voy a cambiar el motor al coche = Solo le voy a cambiar el motor)
5 x
I hope your world is kind.

Is a girl.

Cainntear
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3467
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:04 am
Location: Scotland
Languages: English(N)
Advanced: French,Spanish, Scottish Gaelic
Intermediate: Italian, Catalan, Corsican
Basic: Welsh
Dabbling: Polish, Russian etc
x 8656
Contact:

Re: (Spanish) Why and how is *Le* used in this sentence (8). And are there resources to practice examples like that ?

Postby Cainntear » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:26 am

It's a weird-looking construction right enough, and one I'd likely make mistakes with too.

The same structure is used for things like hitting/punching/kicking someone.

In English you can "punch someone's nose" or "punch someone in the nose" (also "in the face", "in the guts" etc.).

"I'm going to hit your face/you in the face" would be "voy a pegarte la cara", which doesn't translate well in a literal fashion (I'm going to hit you the face?!?!)

The indirect object here works essentially the same as the recipient in "sing you a song", "give you the money" or "buy you a car". What makes the Spanish construction different is that we use it for things that the person already has, like their nose, their face or their engine. This makes Spanish more symmetrical than English, in a way.

For example:
Me han dado un coche - they have given me a car
Me han robado el coche - they have stolen me the car, i.e. "they have stolen my car"

I use "car" here because it's one of a small set of words (car, house, flat/appartment, dog, cat, children) that we habitually use in English with "the" implying my/your etc.
"I went there in the car" (the car is most likely "mine" or "ours")
"You should go home and feed the cat" (your/our cat)

In the Spanish construction, because the indirect object tells us who/what is being affected, we don't need to repeat that information with a possessive, so we just use the definite article... exactly like "punch you in the face". We could say "punch you in your face", but we don't normally. Notice that any word that we can use here takes "the": punch in the face, in the guts, in the kidneys, the ribs, the diaphragm, the duodenum, the family jewels, the baby factory... anything you can imagine working in this slot, even if you make it up -- a (badly written) sci-fi alien might get kicked "in the fore-plangeal-necro-septimus" and you wouldn't blink an eye about the grammar.

Sorry if that's not clear. If you don't understand it completely, don't worry. I'm a believer in the idea of letting the brain sort out data for itself. It'll work through these things in time.
7 x

s_allard
Blue Belt
Posts: 969
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2015 3:01 pm
Location: Canada
Languages: French (N), English (N), Spanish (C2 Cert.), German (B2 Cert)
x 2299

Re: (Spanish) Why and how is *Le* used in this sentence (8). And are there resources to practice examples like that ?

Postby s_allard » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:19 pm

tarvos wrote:Le = el coche

In Spanish you use a dative-type construction here.

(Solo voy a cambiar el motor al coche = Solo le voy a cambiar el motor)


tarvos's explanation is essentially correct but just touches the tip of the iceberg. By the way, for everyone concerned it is important to note that Sólo with the accent is the correct spelling here. Solo without the accent has a different meaning. However the pronunciation is the same.

I should also point out that the dialogue here is trying to be funny (It looks like something from Assimil). The mechanic is talking about a minor repair but then says he only has to change the engine.

The le here is the pronoun replacing the noun coche or antecedent that has been either mentioned previously or is understood. As tarvos has correctly pointed out, le here is the indirect object or dative pronoun replacing the form al coche because the verb cambiar can be used with the preposition a used for indirect objects as in cambiar el motor al coche. We see this in:

Voy a hablar a tu hermano.
Le voy a hablar.


An interesting thing about Spanish is that the pronouns can be tagged on to the verb in the infinitive form, as in .....voy a cambiarle el motor or Voy a hablarle.

All of this is covered under the section indirect and direct object pronouns in any Spanish textbook.

But wait, things can get very complicated. I won't go into all the details here but just three quick points. First, Spanish uses a lot of redundant pronouns for stylistic purposes. Examples are:

A mi mamá le gusta (el chocolate).
Le voy a hablar a tu hermano.


Second, there is a very confusing usage in Spain of the pronoun le instead of the standard direct pronoun lo. I'll skip the explanation but this is known as leísmo and explains why you will see and hear a lot of le's.

Third, the verb cambiar can of course take a direct object and an indirect object, and that is the gist of cainntear's explanation that I would have formulated differently. But that's a whole other complication that is best left for another day.
4 x

User avatar
tastyonions
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1570
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 5:39 pm
Location: Dallas, TX
Languages: EN (N), FR, ES, DE, IT, PT, NL, EL
x 3853

Re: (Spanish) Why and how is *Le* used in this sentence (8). And are there resources to practice examples like that ?

Postby tastyonions » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:33 pm

On the subject of potentially confusing things about "le," one final note is that "le" and "les" both change to "se" when they precede a direct object pronoun.

Se lo dijiste a tus hermanos.
You said it to your brothers.

"Se" is standing in for "les."
1 x

Speakeasy
x 7658

Re: (Spanish) Why and how is *Le* used in this sentence (8). And are there resources to practice examples like that ?

Postby Speakeasy » Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:23 pm

Jaleel10 wrote: ... And are there resources to practice examples like that?
I vaguely recall practicing sentence-pattern exercises in the FSI Spanish Basic and the FSI Spanish Programmatic courses which included the use of object pronouns. I suspect that these exercises would have been designed to reinforce a small number of points of grammar simultaneously; so, tracking them down would take some digging around. As the use of object pronouns is a relatively elementary notion, these exercises should be located somewhere within Volume I of the course manuals.

I'm not suggesting that diverting your attention to these other courses would be a sound idea at this stage. The authors of all well-conceived language courses choose a specific manner and sequence by which the L2's grammar will be introduced and highlighted. So then, while there are advantages to consulting several course manuals concurrently, doing so might have the undesirable effect of disrupting your concentration on the Assimil course.
1 x

User avatar
Ogrim
Brown Belt
Posts: 1009
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:29 am
Location: Alsace, France
Languages: Norwegian (N) English (C2), French (C2), Spanish (C2), German (B2), Romansh (B2), Italian (B2), Catalan (B2), Russian (B1), Latin (B2), Dutch (B1), Croatian (A2), Arabic (on hold), Ancient Greek (learning), Romanian (on hold)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?t=873
x 4169

Re: (Spanish) Why and how is *Le* used in this sentence (8). And are there resources to practice examples like that ?

Postby Ogrim » Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:52 pm

Tarvos, cainntear and s_allard have basically explained it, so I just want to add that in my experience is that Spanish will use the indirect pronouns (dative constructions) much more frequently than is the case in English. The indirect pronouns may often be translated as equivalent to a posessive (mine, yours, his, her etc). A few examples would be:

The mother washed his hair - La madre le lavó el pelo.

He's broken his arm - Se le ha roto el brazo. (Notice also the impersonal construction with the reflexive "se". Literally it would be something like "To him the leg broke itself").

My legs are aching - Me duelen las piernas.

Then you have impersonal constructions with indirect pronouns, like "me gusta" - I like, "me encanta" - I adore/I love, "me chifla" - I am crazy aobut, etc.
2 x
Ich grolle nicht

User avatar
Jaleel10
Blue Belt
Posts: 534
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:44 am
Location: Springbok, South Africa
Languages: Afrikaans (N), English (N)
Spanish (Advanced-B2)
x 963
Contact:

Re: (Spanish) Why and how is *Le* used in this sentence (8). And are there resources to practice examples like that ?

Postby Jaleel10 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:16 pm

Wow. Wow. I never expected such great responses. Thank you for all the great answers. I'll continually refer back to them as I really do tend to struggle with indirect objects pronouns. You guys helped me a great deal.
1 x

Online
Kraut
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2599
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:37 pm
Languages: German (N)
French (C)
English (C)
Spanish (A2)
Lithuanian
x 3204

Re: (Spanish) Why and how is *Le* used in this sentence (8). And are there resources to practice examples like that ?

Postby Kraut » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:02 pm

Ogrim wrote:
My legs are aching - Me duelen las piernas.

Then you have impersonal constructions with indirect pronouns, like "me gusta" - I like, "me encanta" - I adore/I love, "me chifla" - I am crazy aobut, etc.


German has the same:
Mir schmerzen die Beine. Mir tun die Beine weh.
Mir kommen die Tränen.
Ihm fielen die Augen zu.
0 x

User avatar
James29
Blue Belt
Posts: 758
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:51 am
Languages: English (Native)
Spanish (C1-ish)
French (Beginner)
Portuguese (Thinking about it)
x 1741

Re: (Spanish) Why and how is *Le* used in this sentence (8). And are there resources to practice examples like that ?

Postby James29 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:36 pm

Any chance you could post more of the dialogue and the translation in Assimil? I'd like to see more of the context of this example.
0 x


Return to “Practical Questions and Advice”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests