Request advise on choosing and learning a new language.

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individuo
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Request advise on choosing and learning a new language.

Postby individuo » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:47 pm

Hello everybody.
I have in mind to start learning a new language, but I am not sure of which one.
It could be German or French, although Italian and Russian are not completely discarded.

My initial idea is to choose between German and French and then go through the FSI courses.
If I choose German I guess I should do the programmed introduction first, and then the basic. And in the case of French, first the phonology and then the basic.
I would also start reading and watching videos when I feel I am up to it.

It would be the first language I studied by myself and my goal is to reach B2 level in 1 or 2 years (That is starting from zero and with 1 hour of study every day).

Now the questions:
1. Is my goal realistic? What I really want is to be able to read books and watch films in the original version without subtitles, I suppose that a B2 level is enough for that.
2. What do you think of my initial idea? Is it possible to start directly with the FSI Basic or my plan is better?
3. Just to help me decide, between FSI German and French, is any of them better than the other?
4. Taking into account that I haven't studied a language by myself before, would it be a terrible idea to pick up two instead of one?

I will give additional information about my language background and thoughts in the next post.
Thank you for your time and help.
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Xenops
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Re: Request advise on choosing and learning a new language.

Postby Xenops » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:46 pm

First of all, welcome to the forum! :D

As for which language to study, it really has to be an individual choice: what are your goals? Does one culture hold more interest than the other? Are there books or shows you're dying to understand in the original language?

As for FSI, my only concerns would be that 1. the courses can be boring, so it might be best to supplement them with interesting content, and 2. there is some debate if the German FSI course uses old-fashioned words. A more recent, free alternative could be Deutsch Welle: http://www.dw.com/en/learn-german/s-2469

Have fun with whichever you choose.

Edit: Here is the thread discussing the German FSI course: https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3901&p=48747#p48747
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individuo
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Re: Request advise on choosing and learning a new language.

Postby individuo » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:58 pm

Additional information:

I am Spanish, in my late thirties and spent my whole life in Spain.

I finished high school -many years ago- with high marks in English, but that doesn't mean I had a good level, because believe it or not, listening and speaking were not part of the exams. So I had a somewhat good level in grammar but my speaking and listening skills were close to zero.

Years later, after my university studies, I decided to improve my English and took private lessons with a teacher, not a native speaker, but a professional teacher. She helped me a lot and my speaking and listening skills improved so much that now, my main weakness is writing.
I also started watching series in English and later on, reading novels, I didn't use to read novels before that, not even in Spanish. Now I love reading, it has opened a new world for me.
At some point I passed a B2 exam and stopped attending the lessons.
I have kept on reading and watching series and films in English on a daily basis, and I enjoy it.

Now I want to learn a new language but don't want to spend a lot of money in the process, so private lesson are out of the question.
After some research on the internet I found this forum and the "old one" about a week or two ago, and with it, a lot of information.
I think the FSI courses are a good option for me but I also could buy something not too expensive, for example some Teach Yourself books are sold in Spain under a different name (Larrousse metodo integral or express).

Given my experience with English, I am not afraid of grammar and don't anticipate any problem in that regard, but I think I don't have "a good ear" and expect difficulties in that area.

Thank you for your time.
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individuo
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Re: Request advise on choosing and learning a new language.

Postby individuo » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:55 pm

Xenops wrote:First of all, welcome to the forum! :D

As for which language to study, it really has to be an individual choice: what are your goals? Does one culture hold more interest than the other? Are there books or shows you're dying to understand in the original language?

As for FSI, my only concerns would be that 1. the courses can be boring, so it might be best to supplement them with interesting content, and 2. there is some debate if the German FSI course uses old-fashioned words. A more recent, free alternative could be Deutsch Welle: http://www.dw.com/en/learn-german/s-2469

Have fun with whichever you choose.

Edit: Here is the thread discussing the German FSI course: https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3901&p=48747#p48747


Thank you Xenops

My goals are just to enjoy the language through books and videos, to do that, I think I need to read without having to look up new words in every line and be able to understand videos without subtitles (an average film with normal language). And I'd like to reach that level in 2 years studying 1 hour a day.

I don't have any preferences nor do I know what books will I enjoy the most, that's why I am undecided yet.

Yes I read that about the FSI German, but doesn't worry me, in fact, some of my favorite books in English are quite old -Edgar Allan Poe comes to mind- so the old fashion words might be even a plus, I guess that I will acquire more modern vocabulary through watching videos and reading anyway. Am I missing something there?
I don't expect using the language in the real life apart from an occasional tourist asking for directions or something.

About being boring, I don't have experience self learning a language, so I don't know if it will be an issue in my case and you might very well be right. But I am quite sure that I have studied more boring things in my life :) , only they weren't related to language. I'm sure I'll enjoy once I reach a level good enough to start reading, at first with the aid of a dictionary of course.
My main concern is the amount of time necessary to reach that point, I don't want it to be 5 years, but 1 and a half or 2 would be OK.

Thanks for the link to the other course, I didn't know that one, will take a look, and thank you for your time Xenops.
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Re: Request advise on choosing and learning a new language.

Postby Speakeasy » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:19 am

Willkommen und/et Bienvenue! I second Xenop’s extension of a warm welcome to the forum. I look forward to reading your comments on the wide range of discussion topics.

I agree whole-heartedly with Xenop’s comments. Are there professional reasons that might influence your choice between German and French? If not, although learning French would be easier for you, I would suggest that you opt for the language for which you have the most passion.

Should you choose French and should you decide to work with the FSI materials, you would be correct in beginning with the FSI French Phonology course. You should also acquire a grammar of French to be used in support of these materials (not an intermediate or an advanced grammar; rather, a simple grammar).

Should you choose German and should you decide to work with the FSI materials, you would be correct in beginning with the FSI German Programmatic course and then following up with the FSI German Basic classroom course. However, you might wish to consider other alternatives such as Pimsleur I and II, and Michel Thomas.

Please note that the FSI German Programmatic course was specifically conceived as a self-study course for students prior to their embarking on the FSI German Basic course, which was taught in a classroom (actually, you will not perceive the link between the two courses until you reach the sixth unit of the FSI German Basic course). As for many courses using the programmed method, the "process components" (sentences, phrases, words) are divided into smaller segments so that they can be more easily mastered. These “components” are reassembled so that the phrases and sentences can be delivered in the appropriate manner. In the case of the FSI German Programmatic course, this approach can seem particularly fastidious and needlessly drawn-out, a matter which might have the effect of increasing the level of boredom. An additional item of concern that I have with the FSI German Programmatic course is that it was the last in a series of such courses produced by the FSI and, as the organisation was coping with budget restrictions, reductions to personnel, and changes to teaching philosophy, the final five lesson units of this course were so “rushed” that I would recommend that you simply ignore them as they are incomplete and confusing. Quite frankly, my recommendation would be that you choose something other than with the FSI German Programmatic course! Nevertheless, you should also acquire a grammar of French to be used in support of these materials (not an intermediate or an advanced grammar; rather, a simple grammar).

My final comment would be on the FSI German Basic course; the first two lesson units are so unrelentingly boring that I almost abandoned these materials. Fortunately, as of the third unit, the authors began to display a measure of creativity in the sentence-pattern exercises which are the core of this method and, from that point on, the course becomes not just more bearable, but actually enjoyable (you do enjoy doing push-ups and sit-ups, don’t you?).

Enjoy your studies!

EDITED:
Typos, bien entendu!
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Re: Request advise on choosing and learning a new language.

Postby Steve » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:58 am

I recall many many years ago when I was a kid that a few people in my family wanted to learn to play guitar. The guitar and lesson book got passed around between various family members and various families and no one ever learned to play. I remember trying and it was so difficult I immediately gave up. Years later, I learned to play guitar and enjoyed it. In hindsight (with my limited memories from being a kid), I think that the problem was the guitar. All I can remember was that it was nearly impossible to hold a note and that it really hurt my fingers when I tried. I'm now wondering if that guitar was just a cheap piece of junk that was next to impossible to play. Given that my family had a number of good musicians on other instruments, there must have been a reason no one could learn to play that particular guitar.

If you are picking FSI courses primarily because they are free, you might wish to reconsider. The courses and materials you choose are tools you will be spending many hours with to build your language skills. Spending perhaps $50 to $100 on a good course and good materials will more than pay for themselves over months and years. Many people have successfully used courses such as Assimil or Teach Yourself as good starting points. EDIT[Some people have used some of the FSI courses and achieved good results. The key is researching which courses would be best for you and perhaps spending some money if necessary.]

I'd focus on one language for this very important reason: the most important thing that you will be learning is how to learn how to learn a language. I've spent some time reading posts on this site and the old HTLAL site along with blog posts from many polyglots. The biggest thing that I have learned is this single lesson. You need to know what methods will work best for you at each stage of your language development. The successful people with a half dozen or more languages under their belt have learned how to learn efficiently. They have learned how they learn best at each stage of learning a language. Through experience, they have learned when they need to stick with a particular method for a while to work through tough stages, and they have learned when they need to move to the next method. Most beginners fall into one of two traps. One, they put all their efforts into a single course and method that is not appropriate for the stage of language development they are at and make little progress. Or two, they jump between too many courses and materials and spread their efforts to the point where nothing is accomplished. When working on your first language, the time you spend learning about learning will help lay a foundation for successful language learning for life.

I'm a beginner with mediocre skills compared to many on this site. However, a few years ago, I was ready to give up on language learning because I had utterly failed at accomplishing anything. I'm now at perhaps a B1 or so in Spanish after a couple years of work and perhaps a A2/B2 or so in reading ancient Greek depending on the author and genre. The biggest things that I have learned to focus on are these:

1. Language learning is about internalizing a language, not memorizing facts about it. Spend much of your time practicing actual skills (listening, reading, writing, and speaking) rather than drilling grammar and vocabulary lists. Using an analogy of learning to ride a bike, the skills you want to acquire are the bike, and the textbooks, grammar tables, vocabulary lists, etc. are the training wheels. They can be a great help when used appropriately, but don't lose sight of riding the bike.

2. Practicing the familiar and comfortable helps internalize and automate those things. Practicing the unfamiliar and uncomfortable will expand the things you are familiar with. You need to work on both the familiar and the unfamiliar to progress. If you only work on the familiar, you won't get far. If you only work on unfamiliar, you'll thrash around being lost.

3. Make input of the language (via listening and reading) a big part of your early efforts. Your brain needs to get used to hearing the sounds, rhythms, patterns, and meanings of the new language. This only comes by repeated daily exposure to the language. Learning a language needs to proceed more along the lines of learning to play guitar or knowing how to sing Happy Birthday. It's a skill that needs to become automated, not a set of facts to drill yourself on.

Anyway, good luck and best wished on your endeavor.
Last edited by Steve on Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Request advise on choosing and learning a new language.

Postby Dylan95 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:00 am

As a native Spanish speaker you could almost certainly get to a B2 level of French in 1-2 years. Of course this will depend on your methods, but I think that's a very doable goal as long as you're consistent with your studies. German would be a little harder, but that's probably doable too. Personally, I think you should study what you personally want to learn. Both languages have plenty of resources in the forms of film, literature, music etc. It's just a matter of your own taste.
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Re: Request advise on choosing and learning a new language.

Postby Xmmm » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:13 am

Steve wrote:If you are picking FSI courses primarily because they are free, you might wish to reconsider. The courses and materials you choose are tools you will be spending many hours with to build your language skills. Spending perhaps $50 to $100 on a good course and good materials will more than pay for themselves over months and years. Many people have successfully used courses such as Assimil or Teach Yourself as good starting points.


What's wrong with FSI? I know that Modern Russian (which is essentially FSI Russian) is much more comprehensive and thorough than Assimil Russian. Assimil is an introductory course only (for Russian, anyway).

Steve wrote:1. Language learning is about internalizing a language, not memorizing facts about it. Spend much of your time practicing actual skills (listening, reading, writing, and speaking) rather than drilling grammar and vocabulary lists. Using an analogy of learning to ride a bike, the skills you want to acquire are the bike, and the textbooks, grammar tables, vocabulary lists, etc. are the training wheels. They can be a great help when used appropriately, but don't lose sight of riding the bike.


There's a lot to be said for front-loading your vocabulary learning. And learning artificially via an SRS system. I tried this in French a few years back with great results, and regret not doing it for Russian.
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Steve
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Re: Request advise on choosing and learning a new language.

Postby Steve » Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:46 pm

Xmmm wrote:
Steve wrote:If you are picking FSI courses primarily because they are free, you might wish to reconsider. The courses and materials you choose are tools you will be spending many hours with to build your language skills. Spending perhaps $50 to $100 on a good course and good materials will more than pay for themselves over months and years. Many people have successfully used courses such as Assimil or Teach Yourself as good starting points.


What's wrong with FSI? I know that Modern Russian (which is essentially FSI Russian) is much more comprehensive and thorough than Assimil Russian. Assimil is an introductory course only (for Russian, anyway).


I realize my comment was misleading as written. I will go back and edit it. My point was meant to be that money should not be a primary motivation with course selection. If FSI is indeed the best choice for someone, being free is a bonus.
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individuo
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Re: Request advise on choosing and learning a new language.

Postby individuo » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:21 pm

Thank you Speakeasy, Steve, Dylan95, Xmmm and Xenops

I'm decided towards French for several reasons:
--Some of your comments hint that FSI French might be a bit better than the German one. Although some old-fashion vocabulary doesn't bother me, FSI German programmatic course not being well finished could be an issue.
--It appears that French should be easier for me.
--Now I recall that I have already enjoyed some French materials, films dubbed into Spanish and books translated into English.

So I think I will start with French and the FSI courses
I'm picking FSI primarily for convenience, mp3 audio files and a PDF that I can take anywhere in my e-reader, or print it in paper to work at home. And because after doing some research on the internet - and running the first audio file of the FSI French phonology -, I arrived at the conclusion that they are in fact good courses and their style could suit me well.
I will as well follow Speakeasy's recommendation and get a simple grammar book.

I will let you know how I am doing, not on a daily basis, but at the very least once a month, and I will comment in other topics if I think my opinion could be useful.

So thank you very much everybody and see you in the forum.
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