What is the general method people us to learn Slavic languages?

[Dylan95]

to speak Russian with a tight grasp of all of the tiny nuances and details is very difficult.

This is true about any language If anything, if a language is similar to your L1 or strong L2, it may be harder to notice that you're missing out on details etc.

I didn't mean that Russian is unique in this way. It's just the only language I have studied to an advanced or even intermediate level. I try not to make general conclusions about language learning because I don't have deep enough experience in enough languages to really know what is universal or not.

[neofight78]

Perfective verbs are not hard as a concept. The hard thing is to remember verbs in pairs: for many meanings you have to remember impf. infinitive, impf. present, perf. infinitive and perf. present forms, if not more (depending on the language).

Still don't agree Knowing when to use perfective or imperfective is pretty hard. Sure, there's some basic scenarios where it's easy, but if you look up a comprehensive text book, you'll discover upwards of 70 rules that cover the correct usage. But in any given situation it may be that several rules apply (at least as it seems to a foreigner). So getting it right in all situations is very hard. It requires lots of exposure and practice.

As for learning which verbs are imperfective / perfective thats not so hard, although I should mention that's it not strictly speaking true that they come in pairs as often there are several different perfective forms and sometimes different imperfective forms.

[IronMike]

Perfective verbs are not hard as a concept. The hard thing is to remember verbs in pairs: for many meanings you have to remember impf. infinitive, impf. present, perf. infinitive and perf. present forms, if not more (depending on the language).

Still don't agree Knowing when to use perfective or imperfective is pretty hard. Sure, there's some basic scenarios where it's easy, but if you look up a comprehensive text book, you'll discover upwards of 70 rules that cover the correct usage. But in any given situation it may be that several rules apply (at least as it seems to a foreigner). So getting it right in all situations is very hard. It requires lots of exposure and practice.

As for learning which verbs are imperfective / perfective thats not so hard, although I should mention that's it not strictly speaking true that they come in pairs as often there are several different perfective forms and sometimes different imperfective forms.

neoflight78, I didn't write that. Daniel N did. Please edit your post to reflect that.

[neofight78]

Fixed! I knew it was Daniel that said it, but I somehow accidentally left in a stray quote tag and didn’t notice.

[Josquin]

Am I wrong to mention that prefixed verbs of motion combine three difficult aspects of the Russian language, such as verbs of motion, verbal aspect, and verbal prefixes and might therefore truly be considered a big obstacle for learners?

The case system might seem intimidating in the beginning, but it's pretty easy once you know the endings by heart. At least that's true if you're familiar with the concept of what cases are.

Aspect is pretty easy to grasp as well, although it may be difficult to use it idiomatically in every instance. Unprefixed verbs of motion aren't that difficult either, at least once you can decide between directional and undirectional motion. The basic idea is pretty similar to that of verbal aspect IMHO.

Combining these two topics with the countless verbal prefixes opens the real can of worms though...

[Daniel N.]

Still don't agree Knowing when to use perfective or imperfective is pretty hard. Sure, there's some basic scenarios where it's easy, but if you look up a comprehensive text book, you'll discover upwards of 70 rules that cover the correct usage.

70 rules? Really? Honestly, I can think of like 10 rules by heart, which cover like 99% Maybe this is the place to list how I see the aspect, at least in my language (BCMS):

Imperfective
1 ongoing action or state at the time of speaking
2 background action in past or future (the phone rang while you were eating)
3 indefinite action in past or future, i.e. you don't want to say what the outcome was (I was writing a book)
4 with phase verbs, like start, stop, continue (I started working)
5 with repeated atomic actions, where we don't express how many instances (I was jumping)
6 with unbound and uncompleted actions in past and future (I ate)
7 scheduled actions in future, expressed by the present tense (we're leaving tomorrow)

Perfective
8 completed actions in past or future
9 a specified count of atomic/very brief events (I jumped/sneezed three times)
10 completed changes of state (I fell asleep)

As for learning which verbs are imperfective / perfective thats not so hard

At least in my language, it's extremely hard. There are basically no rules, you have to remember verbs at least in pairs.

[Arnaud]

Honestly, I can think of like 10 rules by heart, which cover like 99% Maybe this is the place to list how I see the aspect, at least in my language (BCMS)

Of course, if the aspect in BCMS works like in russian, it's easier for you to choose it : your brain is already more or less wired for the task. It's more difficult for us whose native language doesn't have that imperfective/perfective aspectual pair for each verb.
Your "rules" don't cover how to choose the aspect at the infinitive or the imperative, that are the more problematic cases and extremely frequent in russian.

The grammatical cases are easier because it's an algorithm: you apply the rules, it's a right or wrong result.
The aspect is more difficult because you can often choose one or the other to give nuances to what you say. Except at the present where the imperfective is more or less mandatory (but I could give you exemples where the perfective is used at the present), at the other tenses and modes you can use both aspects and that usage is difficult to understand and apply for beginners : the rules you gave can contradict themselves in real life situations, when you're in a conversation and have no time to "select" which rule to apply: all has to be done on an "intuitive" level, and to reach that "intuitive" level you need a lot of experience. Plus, the imperfective is often dependant of the grammatical context: you often have to use adverbs like "often", "sometimes", or as you said it's used as a background for perfective actions. Without the context, it's difficult to choose the aspect.
Я ходил в магазин (I went to the shop), the action is finished and unique so I can apply rule #8: it's a perfective...Wrong it's an imperfective.
Just a simple exemple of the problems of the rules you gave. They work, but you have to know in which limits they work: in some cases, they simply don't work.

Even that book that gives 75 rules doesn't cover all the cases where it's difficult to choose the aspect. One other problem is that books giving rules on the aspect usually don't explain why this or that aspect is used: why нелзя+impf is a forbidding and нелзя+perf is an impossibility. Where is the logic ? I've never read the explanation anywhere. I can only accept it but it's not very satisfactory.

[Daniel N.]

Your "rules" don't cover how to choose the aspect at the infinitive or the imperative, that are the more problematic cases and extremely frequent in russian.

I agree; however, one of my rules did cover it (with phase verbs, you always use the impf. verb in infinitive).

The aspect is more difficult because you can often choose one or the other to give nuances to what you say. Except at the present where the imperfective is more or less mandatory (but I could give you exemples where the perfective is used at the present)

I agree again. But in most cases, if you use the wrong aspect, you'll still be understood.

Я ходил в магазин (I went to the shop), the action is finished and unique so I can apply rule #8: it's a perfective...Wrong it's an imperfective.

In my language, if you went somewhere, it's almost always perfective, unless something happened on the way, so "going there" is the background. Russian is here, as almost always, more complex than BCMS.

why нелзя+impf is a forbidding and нелзя+perf is an impossibility. Where is the logic ? I've never read the explanation anywhere. I can only accept it but it's not very satisfactory.

I don't really speak Russian, but I will investigate this quirk and report if I find an explanation. I took my language apart, maybe there's something similar.

I still think that remembering 1000 or more verb pairs is more complex than learning 10 or 70 rules.

[Arnaud]

I agree; however, one of my rules did cover it (with phase verbs, you always use the impf. verb in infinitive).

Yes, fortunately for me

I agree again. But in most cases, if you use the wrong aspect, you'll still be understood.

I hate when native speakers tell me that...

In my language, if you went somewhere, it's almost always perfective, unless something happened on the way, so "going there" is the background. Russian is here, as almost always, more complex than BCMS.

Okay. In russian, there is a "class" of imperfective verbs that you can use as a "double perfective": I went to the shop (one perfective action) then returned home (second perfective action)=> imperfective verb. (home->shop->home)
It's working also for sentences like "I opened the window" (but now it's closed), etc...(closed->open->closed)

[Daniel N.]

Okay. In russian, there is a "class" of imperfective verbs that you can use as a "double perfective": I went to the shop (one perfective action) then returned home (second perfective action)=> imperfective verb. (home->shop->home)
It's working also for sentences like "I opened the window" (but now it's closed), etc...(closed->open->closed)

Yes. The same is in BCMS, and that's because the outcome was reversed, cancelled by another action. You are kind of back to square one. But it's optional in BCMS: in such cases, you can use either impf or perf verb and it's more a matter of style.

One thing where impf. verbs are used is where any amount of action matters: did you drink from that bottle? did you open the window (I told you not to)? And so on. But these all fine points. You have to learn first the pairs for 'open' and 'drink'...