Keyword to Kanji or Kanji to Keyword

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Keyword to Kanji or Kanji to Keyword

Postby Atinkoriko » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:49 am

I just started learning Japanese and my first 50 Kanji from Heisig’s Remembering the Kanji. I’m wondering what format my Anki cards should take, passive recognition or production style? Apparently for the latter I’m supposed to guess the kanji from Heisig’s keyword and write it down correctly before checking the card to see if I’m correct.

I’ve checked out a few other forums but it seems people who use RTK have firmly divided themselves into the two aforementioned camps and I still am not convinced which approach would be best for me.

Does anyone have experience with this? What approach should I take, please?
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Ezy Ryder
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Re: Keyword to Kanji or Kanji to Keyword

Postby Ezy Ryder » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:42 am

Kanji->Keyword
Productive recall won't guarantee receptive recall, and what use would you have for handwriting at this stage anyway? Especially since you don't need to be able to handwrite in order to type.
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Re: Keyword to Kanji or Kanji to Keyword

Postby vonPeterhof » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:24 pm

Atinkoriko wrote:I’ve checked out a few other forums but it seems people who use RTK have firmly divided themselves into the two aforementioned camps and I still am not convinced which approach would be best for me.
It has always been my impression that the vast majority of RTK users do as Heisig intended (keyword -> kanji). The question of going in the other direction does get brought up from time to time on the koohii forum, mostly by newcomers to the method, but I don't recall any experienced user making a serious case for going kanji -> keyword there. The only major camps I see there are "do the RTK mostly as intended" and "skip out on it altogether and do the sentence method instead".

Ezy Ryder wrote:Kanji->Keyword
Productive recall won't guarantee receptive recall, and what use would you have for handwriting at this stage anyway? Especially since you don't need to be able to handwrite in order to type.

I don't think there's much utility in learning to associate the kanji with the keyword though. Heisig assigned a unique keyword to each of the kanji with the express purpose of them serving as triggers for associative memory during productive recall, so they don't always accurately reflect the full range of meanings of the characters, plus you'll need to start associating them with their Japanese pronunciations eventually. If you see no value in handwriting, why even learn the characters separately instead of just learning them as (parts of) words as they come up?
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Re: Keyword to Kanji or Kanji to Keyword

Postby Ezy Ryder » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:16 pm

vonPeterhof wrote:I don't think there's much utility in learning to associate the kanji with the keyword though. Heisig assigned a unique keyword to each of the kanji with the express purpose of them serving as triggers for associative memory during productive recall, so they don't always accurately reflect the full range of meanings of the characters, plus you'll need to start associating them with their Japanese pronunciations eventually.

I agree that the Heisig-bestowed keywords won't give you a good idea of the whole range of meanings of a character etc.; but I think it's easier to associate new meanings, and deepen your existing understanding, having established the character as a unit in your memory. Rather than trying to "nail" all the meanings, as you're learning the character (i.e., establishing this collection of components as a single unit, onto which the meanings and pronunciations can be anchored).
vonPeterhof wrote:If you see no value in handwriting, why even learn the characters separately instead of just learning them as (parts of) words as they come up?

I'd like to stress I see little (to no) value (for most) in learning to write characters by hand at the beginning stages. Basically, why dedicate your (probably already limited) time and energy learning to write characters, if you're not able to put that skill into practice?
Skipping the step of pre-learning characters, and going straight to learning vocab is doable, I think. And I don't think anyone who has got to a higher level of literacy in the language, has never learnt new characters since, even if they had learnt a bunch of characters upfront. It's just that it's easier to learn words that are made up of characters you know already, than it is to learn words containing (let alone consisting solely of) new characters.
I like to think of it as: it's easier to remember that (likely not the Heisig keywords) "soil" + "hegemon" = "dike" (土+霸=壩), than it is to learn that it's "soil"+"rain"+"leather"+"moon" (壩=土+雨+革+月). Similarly, it's easier to remember that in Mandarin "the 'dike' with 是" + "the 'dike' with 霸" = "dike" (堤+壩=堤壩), than "soil"+"sun"+"upright" [next character] "soil"+"rain"+"leather"+"moon" (土+日+正_土+雨+革+月=堤壩).
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Re: Keyword to Kanji or Kanji to Keyword

Postby ilmari » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:38 pm

Even if they manage to largely avoid producing handwritten Japanese communications in their everyday lives, foreign aspirants to literacy must still develop the ability to analyze the complex shapes of kanji. Grabbing a pen to actually produce the bits and pieces that make up individual kanji is an excellent way to befriend them.

From a 2003 article still very relevant today.
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/life/2003/11/20/language/whats-the-point-in-learning-how-to-write-kanji/
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Re: Keyword to Kanji or Kanji to Keyword

Postby DangerDave2010 » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:15 am

You'd probably better trying both then deciding according to your experience.
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