FSI Programmatic Portuguese vs DLI

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Yaya100000
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Re: FSI Programmatic Portuguese vs DLI

Postby Yaya100000 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:38 am

@Speakeasy. Thanks again for the in-depth reply. I guess I was finding it slightly difficult to know when to progress with FSI because Pimsleur has the progression already built into the system. I'll simply repeat each part of the course until I get everything or almost everything correct before moving forward. However, I don't want to spend more than a day or two on each unit because I want to finish the course within 2 or 3 months. (For the next couple of months I can study Portuguese around 4 hours each day).

The DLI course also looks like a very solid course as well. I originally intended to only do Pimsleur and the FSI course. However, I might also do the DLI course after I finish FSI. I'm finding that it's better to overlearn the basics before moving on to more advanced materials and I think doing both, consecutively and not concurrently, would really hammer the basics home. As an aside, I noticed that many find FSI/DLI courses "boring". I find my current course to actually be interesting because it is so thorough, plus these courses seem to give a tangible increase in ability upon completion.
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Yaya100000
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Re: FSI Programmatic Portuguese vs DLI

Postby Yaya100000 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:46 am

Okay, so I'm down to the last few units of FSI Programmatic Portuguese 1&2 and will be finished shortly. I also managed to finish the first 30 lessons of Assimil's Brazilian Portuguese, and I spent some time in Brazil recently while working on these courses. I was able to speak with and understand people at a very basic level, but I still have a ways to go as far as understanding spoken Portuguese in real-life.
I'm now a bit confused with how to proceed beyond the FSI course. I feel like I still need practice with the basics, and thus I was contemplating doing another basic course, like DLI or Assimil, or even redoing FSI. The main problem I had with trying to understand native speech wasn't grammatical, rather I just didn't have enough vocabulary. I feel like I'm still not quite ready for native materials yet; I can read newspaper or magazine with a dictionary but I have to look up so many words it becomes a burden. I was just wondering what experienced language learners do once they are at the lower intermediate levels where basic courses start to become less effective and native materials are still slightly out of reach, mainly do to a lack of (internalized) vocabulary.
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Re: FSI Programmatic Portuguese vs DLI

Postby rdearman » Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:31 am

ok, since you competed FSI and it seems you are alright with repetition then I suggest you find a TV series with a lot of episodes and start watching. Start with watching with L1 sub-titles on for the season, then watch the season again with L2 subtitles turned on. The watch it again with no subtitles. Move to season 2 this time start with L2 subtitles and switch to L1 if you really don't understand a section. Repeat season 2 without L2 subtitles. Watch season 3 with no subtitles, and turn on L2 subtitles where you don't understand.

While watching with L2 subtitles on, pause if you don't know a word. Write the word down. Try to figure out the word from context, have a guess as to what you think it means. When you have time, look up the words and put them into SRS or word lists or whatever for review.

Buy a physical book which was translated from your L1 into L2 which you've read in L1. Read page one, if you don't know a word, try to guess it and write your guess in the margin, or on a separate but of paper. Try to figure out if it is a noun, verb, etc. from context. Look up the words to see if your guess was correct. Put correct translation and word into SRS or word list of whatever. Move on to page 2, repeat.

If this is a long book, and the bigger the better! Like War & Peace, then by the time you get to the end of the book there should be very few words you look up. The important thing here is to not just look up unknown words, try to figure them out from context!

You're doing some important stuff here when you start to train yourself to guess at words you don't know. Most of the time you don't need to know the dictionary definition, you only have to sort of know what it means in the context of the sentence or conversation. This ability will help you a lot when speaking to a native of you're well practiced in guessing from context.
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Re: FSI Programmatic Portuguese vs DLI

Postby iguanamon » Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:02 pm

Yaya100000 wrote:... I'm now a bit confused with how to proceed beyond the FSI course. I feel like I still need practice with the basics, and thus I was contemplating doing another basic course, like DLI or Assimil, or even redoing FSI. The main problem I had with trying to understand native speech wasn't grammatical, rather I just didn't have enough vocabulary. I feel like I'm still not quite ready for native materials yet; I can read newspaper or magazine with a dictionary but I have to look up so many words it becomes a burden. I was just wondering what experienced language learners do once they are at the lower intermediate levels where basic courses start to become less effective and native materials are still slightly out of reach, mainly do to a lack of (internalized) vocabulary.

Congratulations on nearly finishing your FSI course. If you haven't read it already, my post on the multi-track approach can give you some ideas about what I've found works for me, and others, in learning a language. There are ways to read without so much frustration. Have a look at my post Using GlobalVoices.org to make simple parallel texts which will show you how to make a parallel text (Portuguese on the left, English on the right). When I was learning Haitian Creole, I started out with the Old Testament in the Bible, Genesis, to be exact. In a parallel text it works out to about a hundred pages. There's a lot of repetition and being able to look over and glance when you don't know a word helps. I also read short US and international news articles, since I already knew the news. Reuters Brasil is a good easy resource. Most of the articles take around two minutes to read. You can also go to the US Reuters site for the original English version.

NHK Radio Japan (Brasil) Português has a very dry, matter of fact, newscast with a transcript see my post on How to listen to Latin American Spanish for tips. You can also try a dubbed tv series- "Os Simpsons" or "Futurama" might be a good place to start. Again, you can make your own parallel text with English to use with this by using the subtitles available online at opensubtitles.org/pt- don't download any exe files! (instructions in my parallel text post.

In order to learn more vocabulary, you'll have to do that by reading, listening or memorization. I find reading and listing to be the best ways for me. Also, it helps to find a native-speaker for conversation practice, either by a language exchange or using a paid tutor can help to pull it all together. Basically, courses alone won't do the job for you. They'll get you to a certain point and then you have to fill in the blanks yourself. It can be done. We do it all the time here, but it isn't just going to fall into your lap. You have to make it happen and there is going to be a certain amount of frustration involved, yes indeed. When I was reading my first real novel, "Woben Lakwa/Robinson Crusoe", in Haitian Creole it was very frustrating. I had to look up a lot of words in the first few chapters and then something not so strange happened. The words I looked up started repeating. I got repeating vocabulary, grammar and idiomatic phrases. By the end of the book, the last few chapters were significantly easier. So, a certain amount of tolerance for the incomprehensible is necessary. By choosing your resources wisely, i.e: a translated reading or series with L1 available, it is less frustrating. Boa sorte!
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Yaya100000
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Re: FSI Programmatic Portuguese vs DLI

Postby Yaya100000 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:12 pm

I managed to finish the FSI programmatic course awhile ago, and I thought it would be good to update this thread for anyone else learning Portuguese who might be looking at both courses. In a nutshell, I think that FSI is more appropriate for a beginner trying to advance to intermediate levels and DLI is better for an intermediate student advancing to a high-intermediate or low-advanced level. So the choice between these two courses really depends on where the person is in their progression through the language, in addition to personal preference.

FSI is a solid basic course that teaches the entire structure of Portuguese in somewhat of a bare-bones fashion. There are no extras, it presents only enough Portuguese to get the student "up and running", so to speak. It covers material up to the b1-b2 level, however, it doesn't really have enough vocabulary to reach that level. I think the entire course contains about 1500 words. So I would say this course used alone would bring the student to around an A2+ level, e.g. just shy of b1. To reach b1 would require maybe twice the vocabulary and more practice with the language.

The streamlined nature of the FSI course is what makes it a better choice for a beginner or low intermediate student. It doesn't overwhelm you with vocabulary while teaching all of the fundamentals. Also, the course starts from scratch, as the first few units focus on pronunciation and very simple exchanges , and it assumes no prior knowledge of Portuguese. In addition the second volume contains a few very short readings to prepare the student for reading Portuguese. Overall I think the course does an excellent job of preparing the student for using native materials (in a limited capacity) and more advanced studies. It's an excellent foundational course. No prior experience with Portuguese is necessary, but I think it would be best to complete a short elementary course first. In my case I completed Pimsleur 1-3 before starting FSI and that was excellent preparation.

I haven't done any of the DLI course, but I think it would be too much for a beginner. i think it would be better to do this course after finishing something like FSI or Assimil. The course is very complete. It contains much more vocabulary than FSI as well as more information about the language overall. Also, by midway through the course or so the speakers on the audio seem to be speaking at or near native speed. The last 2 volumes consist of reading passages and grammar reviews, training the student well for reading native materials. I think if a student really worked diligently through this course there would be no further need for courses. I can't say this for the FSI course.

While the DLI course is the more complete of the two, I wouldn't recommend it to a beginner precisely because of this completeness. The combination of the fast speech, extensive vocabulary and grammar seems like it would overwhelm someone with little or no prior knowledge of Portuguese. It is certainly possible to start with this course from scratch, but it seems like it would take a very intense effort to actually finish it. You would have to learn speaking from fast speech, plus extensive grammar and a large amount of vocabulary simultaneously, all from fast paced lessons. I think that something like Pimsleur 1-3 could suffice as preparation, but it seems like it would still be very difficult to make it through the entire course. It would be better to do FSI or Assimil first then move on to DLI if still desired.I think the best use of DLI is as a finishing course used to refine preexisting skills before moving on to learning from native materials. I hope this follow-up can be useful to those in a similar position to mine of a few months ago. Thanks for reading.
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Re: FSI Programmatic Portuguese vs DLI

Postby Lysander » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:31 am

It is amazing how, no matter what topic I wish to discuss, there seems to already be a thread for it :lol:

Speakeasy wrote:
Daristani wrote:... two-volume course for Brazilian Portuguese entitled "Português Contemporâneo", by Maria I. Abreu and Cléa Rameh, published by Georgetown University Press.

Mais, quelle coincidence! As it happens, I purchased a copy of these course books, including the two sets of audio cassettes, about three weeks ago. The course follows the audio-lingual method and the materials are of a very high quality. In my inquiry to the publisher, I asked if audio recordings might be available in other media such as CDs or MP3 downloadable files and their Customer Service Center replied that only audio cassettes are available and that they have no plans to digitize the recordings. Nonetheless, I believe that these materials are worth the price. By the way, there are many offers of new/used sets of these materials at somewhat lower prices on Amazon, AbeBooks, Alibris, etcetera.

In my search of the HTLAL, I came across only two specific references to these materials, both by the same forum member. He was of the opinion that the "Português Contemporâneo" course was somewhat better than the "FSI Portuguese Programmatic" course, most particularly because the former includes variations of sentence-pattern drills. While I am truly enjoying the former, I would say that a student could do just as well the latter as it contains innumerable practice sets that, while not exactly sentence-pattern drills, have a similar effect on learning. In both cases, the explanations of grammar are insufficient and I would recommend accompanying these courses with the simple, but very effective "Portuguese Verbs & Essentials of Grammar" by Sue Tyson-Wand, published by McGraw-Hill.


yaya1000000 has not been on the site in a while, so I hope you don't mind me asking you, Speakeasy.

1) How many hours do you think it would take someone to work through FSI or DLI in Portuguese? I have not yet figured out how to mass-download all of the audio, and adding them up track by track was rather time consuming, so I figured I'd just ask. I don't like starting things I won't finish, so I want to steel myself for the challenges ahead as there are no promises of "with ease" for DLI!

2) Speakeasy, do you agree with what Yaya said about the thoroughness, difficulty in progression, and end-level of FSI and DLI for Portuguese? Up to now, I was thinking I would work through the active wave of Assimil (I am doing all of the passive wave first before beginning the active), and then go straight to DLI Portuguese. Do you think I would be better served to just finish out Assimil's passive wave, do a solid review, and then skip the active wave, jump straight into FSI, and move onto DLI afterwards? I'd like to think 100 lessons of passive assimil lessons would get me to where I'd be able to successfully use FSI next. And perhaps getting exposed to the same vocab and grammar from a different angle could be better for learning than another few months with the same material I have been using?

3) Regarding Português Contemporâneo, have you worked through all of it? How would you compare it to FSI and DLI in terms of level you'd attain? I have no idea how much audio can fit on one cassette tape, but $214.90 for 21 audiocassettes seems rather steep no matter how much there is. Frankly, the cost alone puts me off in comparing it to FSI and DLI. It seems to me all it would have going for it is possibly clearer audio (how did you feel the quality compared? It is still an almost half-century old cassette, so my expectations would be low), and a nicer printing of the books compared to the type-setting available for FSI and DLI. In your frank opinion, do you think it offers enough that FSI/DLI doesn't that it might be worth consideration to use after Assimil? If it still stands alone as uniquely valuable somehow, do you happen to recall if any resellers had taken the time to digitize the audio and sell it on a CD-rom or thumb drive? Even if I could be convinced the course was worth the cost, I just couldn't bring myself to pay so much for audiocassettes considering I don't even own a cassette player :lol:

Thanks in advance for sharing your thoughts. Your thorough reviews of seemingly every course under the sun are truly invaluable.

Also, in case iguanamon is lurking, do not fear! The above is only about the course side, and I have not and would not be delinquent in listening to NHK or reading real Portuguese regularly! :D
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Re: FSI Programmatic Portuguese vs DLI

Postby Speakeasy » Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:19 pm

Lysander wrote: … 1) How many hours do you think it would take someone to work through FSI or DLI in Portuguese? …
These courses were designed to be covered in approximately (a) for DLI Portuguese, 600 hours of classroom instruction, or (b) for FSI Portuguese, 600 hours of self-instruction including regular review sessions with an instructor; however, this does not mean much in the context of an independent study programme. Perhaps the closest comparison that one could make would be the time required to work through Assimil Portuguese and, as I am sure you can appreciate, the answer depends largely on the sustained intensity with which the individual either can or wishes to apply himself. So then, my admittedly-broad estimate would be that, as for Assimil Portuguese, it would take from six months to a year to complete the FSI/DLI Portuguese courses in a home-study situation.

Lysander wrote: … 2) Speakeasy, do you agree with what Yaya said about the thoroughness, difficulty in progression, and end-level of FSI and DLI for Portuguese? … perhaps getting exposed to the same vocab and grammar from a different angle could be better for learning than another few months with the same material I have been using? …
First off, I agree with absolutely everything that Yaya and Iguanamon have written about the FSI and DLI courses.

Second, the question of whether you should complete Assimil (passive only or passive+active) and whether or not you should then work through either one, or both, of the FSI/DLI courses is open to considerable debate. To a large extent, you have answered your own question in terms of exposure to vocabulary (although there would be differences) and grammar. That is, subsequent to Assimil, working through FSI/DLI would provide genuinely valuable reinforcement which would help solidify your grasp of the basics of your L2. I have done this with all of the languages that I have studied and I do not at all regret having done so. But then again, it is in my very nature to seek the comfort of knowing that I have mastered the basics before taking on challenges at a higher level (this is not necessarily a strength!). Nevertheless, I readily acknowledge the values of the countervailing argument which suggests that the repetition of Introductory Level materials, which have already been adequately covered, does not help the individual progress to the Intermediate Level; rather, if merely introduces a counter-productive delay in the learning process. It might be scary getting into the traffic but, at some point, we simply have to move out of our comfort zone.

Lysander wrote: … 3) Regarding Português Contemporâneo, have you worked through all of it? How would you compare it to FSI and DLI in terms of level you'd attain? I have no idea how much audio can fit on one cassette tape, but $214.90 for 21 audiocassettes seems rather steep no matter how much there is ...
My review of the Português Contemporâneo was based on a quick, but fairly thorough, review of the two course manuals. I had already completed the FSI and Assimil coures at that time and I was quite impressed by the thoughtfulness that had gone into the preparation of this course. Bear in mind, though, that I greatly appreciate the audio-lingual method which was employed in this course and I felt that the sentence-pattern drills were well-conceived as were the accompanying notes.

As to the level one might attain with these courses, in my opinion, were one to work exclusively with either the FSI or Português Contemporâneo courses, there exists a potential for achieving an A2 level upon completion whereas were one to work exclusively with either the DLI or Assimil, the potential approaches the B1 level. However, the major differences in the level achieved, in my view, would depend on the learner’s capacity for sustained application in his studies.

With respect to the Português Contemporâneo audio-cassettes, the price for a complete set is, indeed, quite elevated. In defense of the prospective sellers, I surmise that they are merely trying to recover the costs of purchasing them (so many years ago) and that they are responding to market forces (demand). Given that the FSI and DLI courses are freely available and that the Assimil course provides sufficient material, it is hard to justify such a purchase.

I have not come across a seller of the audio recordings accompanying the Português Contemporâneo in a format other than the original audio-cassettes. Now then, as the holder of the copyright has expressed a lack of interest in providing such a product, I would assume that anyone else making such an offer would have received written permission to do so or, in the eventuality that they haven’t received permission, they are willing to face a challenge of having violated the rights of the copyright holder. As an aside, I have not yet taken the time to digitize my copy of the audio-cassettes -- something that I intend to do for my personal use -- they are sitting in my basement along with an embarrassingly-large collection of over 1,000 cassettes, reel-to-reel tapes, and vinyl records, all of which are awaiting my attention.
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Re: FSI Programmatic Portuguese vs DLI

Postby iguanamon » Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:40 pm

For every reason Yaya100000 thinks that DLI is not for beginners, I do. I was a beginner in Portuguese when I did the course, but I did already speak Spanish to a high level when I started it and jumped in at Volume 4. I've written about why I like the DLI Basic Courses and consider them to be the best courses I have ever done. So I won't rehash that. Our member Kuji has been studying with the DLI Portuguese Basic Course but is away from the forum at present. Maybe he will see this thread sometime and comment.

For me, near native-speed "fast" audio is exactly what I am looking for in a course. That's why I'm not fond of Assimil. The dreadfully slow audio in even the final lessons is my primary reason for disliking it.

What I like about DLI is how each lesson builds on the previous one and is focused on a repetition of concepts and vocabulary across drills, dialog, and reading. It works on all the skills in language-learning, especially if the learner takes the time to answer the comprehension questions. The thoroughness of the course, to me, is its major asset. Personally, I wouldn't want to do the DLI course as a "finishing course" after finishing FSI or Assimil. I, respectfully, disagree with what Yaya100000 says. DLI is indeed intended for beginners. It is not Portuguese "part two". It was designed for beginners in a military classroom starting from zero knowledge of Portuguese. It would bore me to tears to do another beginner course after finishing one like FSI or Assimil. I'd want to take the training wheels off and start learning by using the language. The DLI course will probably take a beginner into B1, especially if the beginner is following a multi-track approach and also getting input from native material and interacting with native-speakers. I highly recommend it.

Still, that being said, whatever course a learner will stick with and actually complete is the best. It can be a struggle for even the most experienced learners to stick with any course and finish it, no matter how good it may be. I wrote this post not to pick a fight but to show anyone who may be considering the DLI Basic course in the future that it is a valid option for beginners.
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Re: FSI Programmatic Portuguese vs DLI

Postby Speakeasy » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:21 pm

iguanamon wrote:For every reason Yaya100000 thinks that DLI is not for beginners, I do. I was a beginner in Portuguese when I did the course, but I did already speak Spanish to a high level when I started it and jumped in at Volume 4. I've written about why I like the DLI Basic Courses and consider them to be the best courses I have ever done … anyone who may be considering the DLI Basic course in the future that it is a valid option for beginners.
A bit of clarification: I seem to have over-looked Yaya’s comment concerning the suitability of the DLI basic courses for beginners. While I thoroughly enjoyed reading his review of the FSI and DLI courses and support many of his comments, I find myself in full agreement with iguanamon’s spirited defence of the DLI courses for use by beginners. I have either used or reviewed in depth all of the DLI basic and FSI basic audio-lingual courses for all of the languages that I have studied, including the equivalent civilian courses that the FSI adopted for Polish and Russian and I would say that they are all just as suitable for use by beginners as are the Assimil courses.
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Re: FSI Programmatic Portuguese vs DLI

Postby Yaya100000 » Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:56 pm

Hello Lysander. I think it took me around 5 or 6 months total to finish the FSI course, however I did stop the course for awhile during that time. If you study the course diligently every day without taking a break from the course, I would say you should be able to finish in 2 to 4 months. In fact, if you complete Assimil first, I would say it should take about 7 to 10 weeks or so. You could complete 1 unit per day for the first volume, and maybe 1 unit every 1 to 3 days for the later, more involved units of the second volume.When I was doing the course I would study about 1 to 4 hours per day. If you did DLI after Assimil I would say it should take you about 3 months to finish. That course consists of 80 lessons, and it seems geared towards doing 1 lesson per day.

Offhand I would suggest that you simply finish your current Assimil course, doing both waves as directed by the course instructions. The Assimil course has more vocabulary than FSI, so as Speakeasy suggested it has the potential to take you a little farther. I found FSI useful for helping to internalize the structure of the language, and for pronunciation practice. FSI is better than both Assimil and DLI for practicing pronunciation in my opinion because it is more detailed in that regard.However you might get both of those benefits from diligently studying your current course, and perhaps redoing it once or twice rapidly to consolidate the basics. You won't learn significantly more portuguese from doing FSI if you've completed Assimil. It would only be a way to practice what you would have already learned. You might find that after finishing Assimil you no longer need any of these basic courses, so I wouldn't put much energy into selecting the "best" course.

Speakeasy told me last year when I was trying to decide which course to do that the level achieved upon completion should not be a factor in my decision. I now understand why. The real purpose of these three basic courses you are considering is to put you in a position to start learning the language from native materials,active engagement, more advanced grammatical studies, etc. I am finding now that this is the real work when it comes to learning Portuguese. None of these basic courses will take you to fluency, and all of them are excellent foundations for achieving it. So once the foundation is built with one or more of those courses, you don't need to keep doing them over and over again.

After finishing your current course, you can have a look at resources that are directed towards intermediate learners in addition to the FSI and DLI courses. For example, after FSI I completed a 100 lesson course at Semantica Portuguese called " A Virada", which is a novela divided into 100 lessons and meant for intermediate learners. There are also textbooks that teach Portuguese that are entirely written in the language. You could consider one of those as a means of consolidating you knowledge instead of FSI/DLI. After a point you'll need to start moving away from using English for learning your new language, because you'll need to start thinking directly in Portuguese to be fluent. Doing too many English-based courses might delay your progress towards not translating mentally between languages. Try to make your learning interesting and fun instead of a chore because you'll have to study consistently for a few years to become fluent. I'm finding that learning a language is an ongoing project not a one-time event.

With regards to the appropriateness of DLI for beginners, I think it is most appropriate for a beginner that can actually finish the entire course, and in a reasonable time frame. I think it's best for a beginner who is prepared to study at a higher level of intensity from the start of his or her studies and perhaps is an experienced language learner. For me, as a person learning my first foreign language, it would have been too much to start with. I had to start off with several levels of Pimsleur before I was ready to even look at FSI or DLI. Realistically speaking, I just don't think that the majority of people will be able to complete DLI without any prior knowledge of Portuguese, and so my comments regarding that course where made in this context. I see it as an ideal beginners course for talented and/or hardworking outliers. Others will disagree, which is fine. My purpose was to describe both courses from the point of view of a typical language learner, which I regard myself as, and not to diminsh the value of the DLI course as a learning tool.
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