FSI Programmatic Portuguese vs DLI

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Yaya100000
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FSI Programmatic Portuguese vs DLI

Postby Yaya100000 » Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:23 am

Hello All. I am new to the board and new to studying foreign languages as well. I am currently in the process of learning Brazilian Portuguese. So far, I have completed Pimsleur 1-3 and I'm currently around 1/4 of the way through Pimsleur 4, which was recently released. In addition, I have been doing 2 online Skype lessons each week with my teacher and I started to play around with Rosetta Stone to pick up some additional vocabulary. I anticipate finishing Pimsleur in another month or two and I would like to move on to more advanced materials upon completion.
In the process of looking for follow-up courses to Pimsleur 1-4, I came across both the FSI Programmatic course and the DLI Basic course. I think I will choose only one of these courses to complete, along with Assimil's Brazilian Portuguese With Ease as a supplement. My goal for this next phase is to reach the B1 level and then move on to native materials to get to the advanced level. I was wondering if there is any significant difference in level reached upon completion between the FSI and DLI courses. Will the programmatic course be sufficient to reach B1? I am leaning towards the FSI course because it seems to have more extensive pronunciation practice, however the DLI course seems to be more complete overall. I just don't want to feel like I'm missing out on any progress by choosing one over the other. Thanks for reading.
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Speakeasy
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Re: FSI Programmatic Portuguese vs DLI

Postby Speakeasy » Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:38 pm

Welcome to the forum! I have to admit that the choice between the FSI and DLI courses for Portuguese is not an easy one, as both are exquisitely well-conceived. However, I am not so sure that the decision should be based on which of the two places greater emphasis on pronunciation and which reaches a more advanced level. Both get the job done ... and very well at that!

While the FSI Portuguese Programmatic course does place an unusual emphasis on pronunciation in the initial stages, this feature of the programme lasts for about the first ten units only and, to a certain extent, there is actually a little bit of exaggeration here, meiner Meinung nach. Thereafter, the lessons progress as they would for many other courses; that is, the differences between the FSI and DLI courses -- as to pronunciation -- are insignificant. Furthermore, as you have already completed Pimsleur Brazilian Portuguese I, II, III and have presumably benefited from one of this programme's majority strengths – pronunciation -- there is no reason to select any additional introductory course materials over any others based solely on their emphasis on pronunciation.

Generally speaking, I would say that the FSI Basic courses of the 1960’s through the 1970’s had the potential for taking the student to a slightly higher level than did the comparable DLI Basic courses of that era and, in the specific case of their respective Portuguese courses, I would say that this general rule holds true. However, this is not to say that the FSI programmes were necessarily better or more in-depth; the DLI offered follow-up courses at the Intermediate and Advanced levels. Overall, I would say that both programmes bring the student to the A2-B1 range and that one should not choose one over the other based on the final level achieved. In any case, there are many other factors that will influence your actual skill in the language. So then, given your chosen programme of study, the differences in "level achieved" between the FSI and DLI courses are inconsequential.

At first glance, the teaching approaches of the two courses seem to be quite different. The FSI Portuguese course employed the “programmatic” approach to instruction which, when properly applied, facilitates autonomous learning. However, I would point out that this course started out as an “audio-lingual” method and that the materials were adapted to the programmatic method due to changes in teaching philosophy at the FSI, not to mention budgetary restrictions at that time. If one has sufficient experience with the audio-lingual method and were one take a close look of the exercise materials included in the FSI Programmatic course, the relationship to the audio-lingual method becomes apparent. By the way, it is assumed that the FSI Programmatic student will have access to a qualified teacher for regular review and testing. The DLI Basic Portuguese course was designed to be delivered in a classroom setting as a head-on “audio-lingual” method programme and the materials reflect this. In my view, putting the initial units of the FSI course aside, the approaches of the two courses are actually very similar; that is, the presentation of dialogues supported by massive amounts of sentence-pattern exercises. In both cases, there seems to be the assumption that the student will deduce much of the target language’s structure from the exercises, as is the case for the Pimsleur method. For this reason, and I would not be surprised if you have already done so, I would suggest that you accompany all three of these programmes with a simple grammar.

When I was more involved in studying Portuguese, I followed a self-study programme very similar to your own, with the exception that I studied both the FSI and DLI courses. Frankly, I think that there was an awful lot of “overkill” in this approach (particularly as I had chosen to include additional introductory courses) as it delayed my progress to more advanced studies. You might wish to reflect on this and, perhaps, remove the Assimil course and replace it with native materials.

As you can tell from reading my rambling reply, I have not really answered your question as to the “either/or” of FSI versus DLI. While I have a slight preference for the FSI course, the DLI version gets the done pretty-much just as well. Given the very heavy emphasis on pronunciation in the first units of the FSI course, I suggest that you try the first fifteen units to get a flavour for it. Afterwards, try the first five units of the DLI course. Compare the two courses and choose the one that pleases you the most. Either way, you can't lose!

Addendum: Previous Discussion Threads
After posting the above comments, it occurred to me that this type of question might have been nd discussed in the past. I conducted a quick search and located a couple of threads from the previous forum "How-To-Learn-Any-Language" (HTLAL); others may exist...

DLI vs. FSI Portuguese, HTLAL, March 2012 (see "iguanamon's" comments)
http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31522&PN=38

FSI Portuguese, HTLAL, May 2013 (see "iguanamon's" comments)
http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35937&PN=22

Is there any other program like Assimil? HTLAL, March 2014 (see "iguanamon's" comments)
http://www.how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=38242&PN=13&TPN=1

EDITED:
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Addendum.
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Re: FSI Programmatic Portuguese vs DLI

Postby tarvos » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:36 pm

The choice of course is important, but between these two the difference isn't going to be very big. Once you have a course, it's more important to be assiduous, applied and do what you have to do in order to learn Portuguese.

And I've never studied more than the first twenty or so lessons of "ASSIMIL Portugees" (Dutch base) and I speak all right Portuguese (I speak Spanish though).

I'd pick the one you like best and make sure you actually study it and work on routines instead of worrying too much about materials. The material quality may vary, but unless it's really awful, just stick with it, you'll learn more actually working with what you have than by worring about what might have been.
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Re: FSI Programmatic Portuguese vs DLI

Postby iguanamon » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:10 am

Thanks for the recommendations of my comments, Speakeasy. I've never done an FSI course but I have done two DLI courses, Portuguese Basic and Haitian Creole Basic. I can highly recommend DLI. The Portuguese Basic Course was the most thorough and best course I've ever done in any language.

What I liked about DLI
1) Very little English used, but just enough to help when needed.
2) Thorough- with a dialog emphasizing the grammar points covered
3) Grammar drills- perception and comprehension
4) Pauses in the dialog audio for a simulated conversation (don't edit the pauses out)
5) Reading and reading comprehension questions
6) More drills
7) a thorough review every 5 lessons
8) a glossary at the end of every lesson
9) did I mention that it's free!

Yes, the course is dated. As long as a learner gets exposure to modern, spoken Brazilian Portuguese, this is not a problem at all. See my link below in my signature space. Boa Sorte!
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Yaya100000
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Re: FSI Programmatic Portuguese vs DLI

Postby Yaya100000 » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:29 am

Thanks for the quick responses. They were all very helpful. I am grateful to receive excellent advice from experienced and accomplished language learners.

Speakeasy, thanks for the very in-depth response. It was quite educational. From what I gather, you are saying the courses are equally good at bringing the learner to the intermediate level, and that there is no significant difference in terms of outcome upon completion. Since this is the case I will go ahead and proceed to FSI Programmatic when I finish with Pimsleur, since I like the approach of this course a little more than that of the DLI course. I won't bother doing both, since that seems like a less than optimal use of time. I also recently bought Modern Brazilian Portuguese Grammar by Whitlam, along with the workbook, so I guess I'll use those either alongside or after the FSI course. I had originally envisioned doing Assimil as a supplement to FSI/DLI, then finishing with the grammar to bring every thing together. For clarification, are you saying that adding Assimil to FSI might be overkill? If so, I'll drop it and focus on FSI and basic grammar instead. I was adding Assimil as a source of additional vocabulary and idioms, not as a co-main course.
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Re: FSI Programmatic Portuguese vs DLI

Postby Speakeasy » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:26 pm

Yaya100000 wrote: ... I had originally envisioned doing Assimil as a supplement to FSI/DLI, then finishing with the grammar to bring everything together. For clarification, are you saying that adding Assimil to FSI might be overkill? If so, I'll drop it and focus on FSI and basic grammar instead. I was adding Assimil as a source of additional vocabulary and idioms, not as a co-main course.
There is certainly much to be gained from including a variety of materials in one’s study programme. Since the question of “how much is too much?” can be debated endlessly, I will answer by providing a couple of quotes from other discussion threads, as follows (colour added):

Should I add Glossika to Linguaphone routine? - A Language Learners’ Forum, August 2017
Speakeasy wrote: … I would say that opinions vary as to the number of resources one should use at the Beginner's Level of learning a language. Some people prefer the "multi-track approach" for its potential of widening and solidifying the base. In addition, since no single language course can give adequate coverage to every aspect of a language, this approach helps ensure that the user will absorb the basic elements. Furthermore, it tends to decrease feelings of fatigue, staleness, and boredom that might result from studying with a single resource. Nevertheless, life being what it is, there is risk associated with this approach: the obsessive repetition of the same basic concepts can retard one's progress. So then, while this approach has undeniable benefits, one needs to be aware of its inherent risks and to ensure that it is adopted in a balanced fashion: widen the base, move forward ... widen the base, move forward ... Other people prefer locking into one basic resource, often accompanied with the use of a dictionary and a basic grammar, and stick with it up to the A1 or A2 levels before looking to other resources…
jeff_lindqvist wrote:I'm generally in favour of a multi-track approach/supplementary material. One course may explain a certain concept better, another may focus on a different skill and so on…
NOTE: Here is the link to the “foundational” discussion thread. I invariably adopt the "multi-track approach" and derive all of its benefits. Nevertheless, because I adopt the approach in a truly obsessive manner, I am a constant victim of its major drawbacks. As a "final comment", I would suggest that you simply follow iguanamon's advice as to the choice of materials and as to the multi-track approach, you certainly cannot go wrong!

The multi-track approach - HTLAL, January 2014
http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=37899

EDITED:
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Re: FSI Programmatic Portuguese vs DLI

Postby sfuqua » Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:00 am

There is a lot of wise advice here.

The only thing that I would add is that it is important to find a way to study that you enjoy.

If you use a less efficient system that you enjoy, but that you continue to use for a long time, is better than a system that you quit.

Language learning should be enjoyable, if at all possible.
Last edited by sfuqua on Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FSI Programmatic Portuguese vs DLI

Postby Speakeasy » Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:02 am

sfuqua wrote: ... Language learning should be enjoyable, if at all possible.
A great replacement name for this forum!.
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Yaya100000
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Re: FSI Programmatic Portuguese vs DLI

Postby Yaya100000 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:19 pm

So I have started the FSI course and have finished the first 6 units. I noticed that starting in the seventh unit there are dialogs. Is it enough to work through these dialogues a few times for understanding and proper pronunciation, or are they to be memorized? What additional value would memorizing the dialogs add to the learning process?
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Speakeasy
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Re: FSI Programmatic Portuguese vs DLI

Postby Speakeasy » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:06 pm

@Yaya, congratulations on your sound choice of learning materials. You might also wish to have a close look at the DLI Basic Portuguese (Brazilian) course.

Should one memorize the dialogues? In my opinion, the value in doing so is rather marginal. They, and the sentence-pattern exercises, are "manufactured" scripts that do not necessarily represent the way people converse in real life. There are greater, and more varied, opportunities for practicing the grammatical features that are deployed in the dialogues through repeated practice of the sentence-pattern drills. My recommendation would that you recite the dialogues no more than ten times, perhaps shadowing them with the assistance of the course book, and then progress to the sentence-pattern exercises. Keep moving forward, the materials are cumulative.

Addendum:
After having posted the above comments, the thought occurred to me that, when I was using the FSI Programmatic Portuguese course, I found the explanations of grammar less than limpid. Should you find yourself in a similar situation and should you wish to resolve your questions quickly, I would recommend that you accompany your studies with a simple grammar. Here are two suggestions:

Portuguese Verbs & Essentials of Grammar
https://www.amazon.com/Portuguese-Verbs-Essentials-Grammar-2E/dp/0071498079/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1506976204&sr=8-1&keywords=portuguese+verbs+and+essentials+of+grammar

Essential Portuguese Grammar
https://www.amazon.com/Essential-Portuguese-Grammar-Language-Guides/dp/0486216500/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1506976204&sr=8-2&keywords=portuguese+verbs+and+essentials+of+grammar

I have both books and, while I prefer the former, both get the job done.

EDITED:
Addendum.
Removed comments concerning the FSI Programmatic course.
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