Key to Native-Like Fluency is to stop talking about .....?

[issemiyaki]

I know this is probably silly to say, which means it's worth saying, right?

I'm starting another round of tutoring sessions.

But this time around, I'm going to try my best to NOT talk about language learning. When I look back on my previous learning sessions, I don't know what it is, it's like I have this nervous tick or something. I constantly found myself explaining why I made one error or another. Sometimes, you just have to accept it. Nobody cares. Move on!

Why is this a problem? Because I can talk about language learning like the wind, to the point where if you were listening to me you might think I was wasting my money on tutoring. However, ask me to talk about what I did today and you'll sense it might, at times, be a bit of a struggle.

I was under the impression that if we explore the root of the problem, we can fix it. But often times, that leads to discussions about grammar, which takes away from the time I could be using to learn more expressions, which ironically might help me out in a pinch.

Besides, as AJATT and ANTIMOON have pointed out, when it comes to grammar, for every rule there are probably twice as many exceptions (am I being too jaded?). And also, if you have to think of the grammar explanation all the time, you're depriving yourself of developing an ear for what sounds right, I suppose.

So, let me know. Do you find yourself constantly talk ABOUT the language, instead of using it to talk about SOMETHING ELSE. (Even when I do self-talk in my room, I find myself talking about language, and I have to literally stop myself and force myself back on topic.)

[Cavesa]

But this time around, I'm going to try my best to NOT talk about language learning.

I agree that is a good course of action, just like not talking about other easy topics we have been talking about for ages. That's nice I sound like a native, when it comes to talking about stuff I have talked about many times and don't need to focus on. It is necessary to leave the comfort zone, even though not easy to find the topic for challenging discussion.

I was under the impression that if we explore the root of the problem, we can fix it. But often times, that leads to discussions about grammar, which takes away from the time I could be using to learn more expressions, which ironically might help me out in a pinch.

I totally agree that talking about grammar with a tutor is a waste of time and money. Sure, asking questions is fine, sometimes perhaps the expressions can help, but usually sitting down with a grammar book and/or looking up tons of examples fixes the issue without any tutor.

Besides, as AJATT and ANTIMOON have pointed out, when it comes to grammar, for every rule there are probably twice as many exceptions (am I being too jaded?). And also, if you have to think of the grammar explanation all the time, you're depriving yourself of developing an ear for what sounds right, I suppose.

I love AJATT, even though I don't entirely share khatzumoto's view of the grammar. The amount of exceptions depends on the language (English is horrible at this), and a good explanation and understanding the rules is very helpful. But tons of examples (like the Super Challenge) are crutial. I think you are being too hard on yourself in this point. I agree we need to develop an ear for what sounds right, but I highly doubt tutoring is an important part of that, unless you pay for so much tutoring to equal a massive amount of native input from tv series, movies, radio, and so on.

[issemiyaki]

@LesRonces - I soooooo agree with you.

Why can't these polyglots start a channel like some of the YouTube sensations, talking about everyday issues, world issues, gossip, etc. We're on the same page with that one.

But to their credit, it was these "polyglots" that made me believe it was "possible" to learn another language without living in the country.

[issemiyaki]

@Cavesa

I hear where you're coming from.

[lusan]

I know this is probably silly to say, which means it's worth saying, right?

I'm starting another round of tutoring sessions.

But this time around, I'm going to try my best to NOT talk about language learning.

I had the same problem. After a while, I concluded that I was using the topic to avoid talking in general. Now I like either role play or small talk about life in general. I feel that it is the A2 trap. To move further, we need to talk about more general topics such as politics, social issues, etc.

[Teango]

If i hear the phrase 'sprechen die Sprache...' one more time...

Lol. And as harrowingly true as it is for many learners of Russian out there, here's another stock phrase that makes me cringe a little bit every time I hear it: "русский язык очень трудный" (or a similar formulation, lit. the Russian language is very difficult) I usually play a little game with my wife to see how many seconds it will take before that little gem pops up. The loser of the bet makes the next cup of tea!

[qeadz]

As a learner of only one language in addition to my native tongue, talking about my acquisition and experiences with the language feels almost natural as a conversation topic. Other topics feel a little forced - I mean usually I'm talking about them in ENGLISH.

How much more would this be the case if I were a polyglot and learning languages was my primary interest? I think its very excusable tbh.

My frustration with polyglots who have a significant online presence is that whenever they demonstrate their abilities in languages, they tend to have the same 'goto' topics for each language which are reused every time. So it feels like their off-the-cuff demonstrations actually showcase the best of their ability in the language rather than what might be more representative of their ability if it were more general conversation.

Their off-the-cuff topics are, over the years, fairly well rehearsed I suspect. And probably it gets reinforced as the more they use said topic, the more readily it comes to mind the next time they need to showcase their abilities.

But dont think I am raining on their parade - I think people who tackle multiple languages deserve a lot of respect for the massive amounts of time and effort they put into these accomplishments.

[tarvos]

I know this is probably silly to say, which means it's worth saying, right?

I'm starting another round of tutoring sessions.

But this time around, I'm going to try my best to NOT talk about language learning. When I look back on my previous learning sessions, I don't know what it is, it's like I have this nervous tick or something. I constantly found myself explaining why I made one error or another. Sometimes, you just have to accept it. Nobody cares. Move on!

Why is this a problem? Because I can talk about language learning like the wind, to the point where if you were listening to me you might think I was wasting my money on tutoring. However, ask me to talk about what I did today and you'll sense it might, at times, be a bit of a struggle.

I was under the impression that if we explore the root of the problem, we can fix it. But often times, that leads to discussions about grammar, which takes away from the time I could be using to learn more expressions, which ironically might help me out in a pinch.

Besides, as AJATT and ANTIMOON have pointed out, when it comes to grammar, for every rule there are probably twice as many exceptions (am I being too jaded?). And also, if you have to think of the grammar explanation all the time, you're depriving yourself of developing an ear for what sounds right, I suppose.

So, let me know. Do you find yourself constantly talk ABOUT the language, instead of using it to talk about SOMETHING ELSE. (Even when I do self-talk in my room, I find myself talking about language, and I have to literally stop myself and force myself back on topic.)

See also: my blog.

When I do tutoring at advanced levels, I make sure to cover topics that aren't the same thing over and over. Which doesn't mean that I have to cover deforestation in Nauru, but I do make sure that the topics are diverse, so that it's not the same thing over and over. How well I actually deal with that is dependent on the language, though.

I can guarantee you that many polyglots, though, are capable of very diverse conversations in many areas of life. It's just not the side you see on Youtube. Someone who's ever spoken to Richard Simcott on various issues in, say, Spanish, will know this.

That's also the reason I keep my blog in various languages so I don't just cover a single topic. It's at the cost of some detail and nuance in my expressive ability, but at the same time I wish to show that polyglots don't just talk about one thing over and over. That's why my blog contains book reviews, discussions of philosophy and atheism, poetry, stuff about transgender rights, and so on. There's even an article on Ajax in Portuguese...

That said, most polyglots have very divergent levels in many different languages. I don't think I speak ANY of my languages as well as I do Dutch or English by a long shot, even though I am definitely not CRAPPY at a bunch of them either - I'm pretty sure I can handle most things in, say, Spanish, Russian, German or French. It doesn't matter to me though. Even if the rest of the world thinks I'm a one trick pony - my experiences outside the polyglot community tell me something else, and I'm pretty sure that many of the polyglots have similar experiences.

[Iversen]

Once upon a time long ago on something that now seems like a far away and distant galaxy I made some Youtube videos. I did the first ones to explain some of my techniques ((like the three column wordlists) or just to vent my opinions about different aspects of language learning, and after them I did a series on languages I had learnt or was trying to learn - but only one language per video, with half the video reserved for a summary in English. When I ran out of languages I tried to do what Les Ronces advocates above, namely to speak about non-linguistic themes in the relevant languages - not terrorism or politics, but my travels and my paintings. But I discovered that the less I spoke about language learning and languages the less viewers I got. Apparently language afficionados aren't interested in travels and paintings unless the videos are spoken entirely in one language, and it 'd better be English. And because of this unpleasant discovery I stopped doing videos. Today I regret having wasted my time on making videos which I don't even care to watch myself.

Apart from that, to me it seems that the spate of "NN speaking X languages" videos is over, and I don't miss them.

[Cavesa]

I thought the days of high popularity of such videos were over too, perhaps I was wrong. Really, there have been so many created and vast majority of them being either suspicious or an advertisement (or both), it is a wonder there is still place for new ones.

The problem we seem to have agreed on here is talking about too easy stuff, not leaving our comfort zone. And that is true.

It is true both in the real life in the country and with tutors. Because there are social norms and practical issues binding us. In real life, we need to make friends first, because vast majority of real conversation is considered inappropriate at first, we live in the age of smalltalk glorification and totally blurred lines between a normally different point of view, which is the base of interesting discussion, and something offensive.

With tutors, you need someone you met regularly (the first few lessons are likely to suck in this aspect for obvious reasons), and someone who can be a good conversation partner about a wide variety of issues. From my experience, this is a limitation typical of people who teach a language, have studied that language at university, have always known they wanted to teach the language, have never considered anything vastly different than that, and even their hobbies and personal interests don't divert from the line. It is harder to get thematically more challenging lessons with them, unless you mean advanced literature and so on, than what is covered in language courses or in the humanities/literature/language based program on their university.

Sure, experience is the key in tutors. Education in language teaching can certainly be useful (even though we always need to ask what education in language teaching has the particular person got). But the narrow focus of some of these people can sometimes be a problem, especially for advanced learners. In such a case, it is not reasonable to expect them to stop us from talking about stuff that is also their comfort zone.