Best approach to learning more words

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aaleks
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Re: Best approach to learning more words

Postby aaleks » Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:34 pm

Xmmm wrote:тачка, урод, мент, ты издеваешься

Those are all brand new words to me, despite the fact that I've read 1.5 million words and know more than 16000 as per LingQ. It seems like they are all colloquial or outright slang, but Dostoyevsky certainly didn't use them, nor do they appear on Russian political talk shows. I also doubt they are on any formal test.

Emphasis mine.
Just in case :)
издеваешься - is a 'normal' word. I mean it's not a slang or colloquial word.
издеваешься/издеваться could be translated as 'mocking' or 'kidding' but I'd translate it and as 'torturing' or something the like too (although I didn't find the latter in Google translate).
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Re: Best approach to learning more words

Postby polyglotponderings » Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:38 pm

Thank you all for the responses! Basically, it seems that it just takes a lot of time to reach a high level in a language (especially Russian??) whether that’s through learning words with Anki or extensive reading. Based on the comments I do think I need to do more extensive reading while learning words at the same time. I think my approach going forward will be to read graded readers which I can actually read extensively, and continue learning words by my current method of LWT/Anki, and just understand that it’s going to take a while. I may cut back on learning inflected forms and just stick to lemmas. I still want to consider that. I feel like reviewing the inflected forms will help cement my knowledge of grammar. We’ll see.

LesRonces wrote:You can learn a language relatively quickly but one thing polyglots do is tolerate ambiguity.

I would agree with you about polyglots needing to accept ambiguity, but at my stage, based on this book, I don’t know 2/3 of the words, and I think that would be too much ambiguity. In the example you gave I’m sure you understood 98%-99% of the other context which allowed you to infer meaning. I think to learn words in that manner, you would have to know at least 98% of the surrounding context. A while back, I came across a presentation that provides examples of this: https://www.slideshare.net/MarcosBenevides/how-easy-is-easy. He also references some research on this.

rdearman wrote:So let me ask you a question, do you need to know every single word in a Harry Potter book to speak English?

I don’t think that you necessarily need to know every word in a Harry Potter book to speak English per se, but for the level of Russian I would like to speak, which would still be well below my level in English, I think I would need to be able to understand all of the words in a fairly simple novel.

rdearman wrote:Also you might want to look into word frequency lists to learn.

My concern with frequency lists are that they are out of context. I originally thought about using them, but decided against it for that reason. I need a source of vocabulary in context, and a novel seemed like a good source.

Xmmm wrote:which is why a lot of people on this thread are telling you to drop Anki and read broadly

My only concern with dropping Anki is that, I know from my experience in the past that I have real trouble with producing the word if I just learn it through extensive reading. I completed the old Assimil Russian without Toil, and I noticed this problem. It seems the act of having to produce it from the English sparks it in your brain. I believe a lot of research into learning supports this recall approach. Anki just seemed like an efficient and simple way to do this. If I were just going for understanding, I think dropping Anki would make sense.

Again, Thank you all for the thoughtful responses. I'll try to figure out a way to add in more extensive reading with graded readers.
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Re: Best approach to learning more words

Postby blaurebell » Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:53 pm

polyglotponderings wrote:It seems the act of having to produce it from the English sparks it in your brain. I believe a lot of research into learning supports this recall approach. Anki just seemed like an efficient and simple way to do this. If I were just going for understanding, I think dropping Anki would make sense.


Sure, that makes sense, but activating a word that you already know passively is probably easier than learning to produce a completely unknown word. And again, who says that you'll ever need to produce the words that you read in a novel? Most people don't aim to become writers, so putting literary vocabulary into anki is probably a waste of time. I only learn the vocabulary I actually need, so my active vocabulary will only contain words that I've actually needed to write or say at some point. Maybe starting to write a little daily journal would be a better source for your active vocabulary?

polyglotponderings wrote:Basically, it seems that it just takes a lot of time to reach a high level in a language (especially Russian??) whether that’s through learning words with Anki or extensive reading.


A high level always takes a long time. In the case of Russian even an intermediate level takes long, simply because the grammar is difficult and there is so much more vocabulary to learn. With French it took me about 500h total study time to be able to read novels without a dictionary with reasonable precision. With Russian my current statistics let me expect at least double that time if not even more! We picked a difficult language ...
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aaleks
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Re: Best approach to learning more words

Postby aaleks » Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:09 pm

It's just a rhetorical question but sometimes I wonder what is more difficult: for English (Romano-Germanic) native speaker learn Russian or for Russian (Slavic) learn English? :roll:
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For building and increasing my English vocabulary I've used, in the first place, reading but watching series has been more useful for learning idioms and colloquial speech. I've never used any kind of wordlists, but until recently I have been more focused on passive skills. But I guess I wouldn't use them anyway, it's just not my way :)
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aaleks
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Re: Best approach to learning more words

Postby aaleks » Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:34 pm

LesRonces wrote:
So a better way would be '...for an English (Romano-Germanic) native speaker to learn Russian or for a Russian to learn English?'

I vote for this version ;) . Leaving out articles is a typical Russian mistake, we don't have such "strange", "unnecessary" things in our language 8-)
Thank you :)
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Re: Best approach to learning more words

Postby Theodisce » Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:04 pm

aaleks wrote:It's just a rhetorical question but sometimes I wonder what is more difficult: for English (Romano-Germanic) native speaker learn Russian or for Russian (Slavic) learn English? :roll:


It's nearly impossible to say, given that most young and middle aged people from many (most? all?) Slavic speaking countries have been exposed to English via various media, even those where their native language is used. There is no analogical phenomenon in the Germano-Romanic world (I feel uneasy with this divide though), so I would argue that it is almost impossible nowadays to make a balanced comparison.
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Re: Best approach to learning more words

Postby neofight78 » Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:46 pm

Stick with just using lemmas, you're wasting you time with inflections. If know the grammar then deciphering or producing the inflected words won't be a problem. If that's still hard for you, then that requires working on grammar separately.

Arnaud wrote:
smallwhite wrote: 9000 words is C1 level if you pick your words reasonably carefully...

10000 words are required for the TRK2 (B2) level in russian (at least in the official texts, perhaps they are more relaxed in reality).


I passed B2 knowing about 4,500 lemmas, and was told my vocabulary was strong, so I think the numbers are inflated. Anyhow 9000 sounds about right in practice for C1. Although if I remember rightly it's supposed to be 7,000 active and 12,000 passive.

Arnaud wrote:Honestly, there are no magic tricks to learn the russian vocab: you have to learn it, in a way or another, and it's a long path.


This :!:

Find away of studying that you are happy with whether that's extensive reading, LingQ, wordlists, flashcards or something else and just go for it. Prepare for the long haul but make sure you enjoy the ride.
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Re: Best approach to learning more words

Postby neofight78 » Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:57 pm

Also if you don't have a Slavic language as your native language and if you are not a genius then getting to a high level in Russian, i.e C1 or higher, is going to take you years to get to. That is a genuine C1 with a sound ability in all 4 skills.

And if you really are aiming for a high level, I don't really believe in using frequency lists. You've got to know the rarer words as well as the frequent words. To fully understand the book you needs to know all the words, so why not learn them all. To me learning a word is never a waste, every word enriches.
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Re: Best approach to learning more words

Postby Xmmm » Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:44 pm

neofight78 wrote:
Find away of studying that you are happy with whether that's extensive reading, LingQ, wordlists, flashcards or something else and just go for it. Prepare for the long haul but make sure you enjoy the ride.



This is something I've never understood. Let's say you have two paths to learn Russian:

    1. Anki. It will take you exactly 2000 hours to reach C1.

    2. Reading in Russian and watching TV in Russian. It will take you exactly 3000 hours to reach C1.

Why would anyone who is learning a language as a hobby choose to go with Anki?

With the first approach, you are chained to a machine. With the second approach, you are reading Bulgakov in the original one day, and the next day you are watching Брат or Ленинград 46.

I would argue that with the first approach you are learning Russian. With the second approach, you are becoming Russian. At least a little bit. :)
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Re: Best approach to learning more words

Postby neofight78 » Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:15 pm

Xmmm wrote:Why would anyone who is learning a language as a hobby choose to go with Anki?


Because for some people reading or watching TV without knowing enough words is more tortuous than using Anki. Indeed Anki can even be pleasurable. Horses for courses.

I tried several times before to read books, and for me it was just torture. Now that I've got a decent vocabulary thanks to Anki, I can now read without it being a slog. Not to mention that my active vocabulary is far greater than it would be if I had just read.
Last edited by neofight78 on Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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