formal or informal on this forum

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Cavesa
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Re: formal or informal on this forum

Postby Cavesa » Tue May 16, 2017 10:13 pm

The difference between singular and plural is not an issue, it is pretty clear which is which even in English, based on context. And the indefinite generic person "tu" is used in English as well. "On" is not an issue either. The singular is an issue, especially in the log subforum, where we tend to write in our foreign langauges the most and at the same it is the subforum where we most often address each other as individuals, rather than a group.

The thing I am interested in is more clearly:
Which should be the default singular use at the forum in each language?

Hekkles describes well what happens in very public situations. But not in all the langauges and not in all public online situations. In general, Spanish tu is much more used than in Fr/De/Cz both in real life and online, but I cannot pinpoint the borderline. And even the "more formal" languages use default informal pronoun in some online communities, including larger ones. My knowledge of those is mostly anecdotal, so I am asking you all for experience ("yall" as some anglophones say :-D ).

I am definitely not standing behind any of the options, I'm rather trying to find the proper options to get used to, so that I don't need to let this though slow me down while writing. So far, it looks like the more formal variant is winning, for most languages. Spanish is the one I am most curious about
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Re: formal or informal on this forum

Postby tarvos » Tue May 16, 2017 10:30 pm

This is a choice that really differs per language. In Spanish it seems very strange for me to address people as usted on forums. In French I am much more inclined to use "vous", but I can deal with "tu", and besides, I think "vous" makes people sound very stand-offish, which is not the type of language use that interests me. In German using "Sie" on forums is not very common. In Russian and Czech I'd use the formal unless invited to otherwise.

As a Dutch woman, I personally feel that the use of the formal makes people sound stilted and impersonal. It gives off an air of business, of not caring, of a complete lack of an emotional connection. I could use the formal to distance myself from people if I get angry at someone. I find that hierarchical usage of pronouns only leads to ego boosts, status and feelings of superiority. Egalitarianism is a good thing in my view and when I use informal pronouns I feel like I am talking to people, not government bureaucrats. There is a time and place for formal pronouns and somehow forums, to me, are not one of them.
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Cavesa
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Re: formal or informal on this forum

Postby Cavesa » Tue May 16, 2017 10:55 pm

tarvos wrote: In German using "Sie" on forums is not very common. In Russian and Czech I'd use the formal unless invited to otherwise.

As a Dutch woman, I personally feel that the use of the formal makes people sound stilted and impersonal. It gives off an air of business, of not caring, of a complete lack of an emotional connection. I could use the formal to distance myself from people if I get angry at someone. I find that hierarchical usage of pronouns only leads to ego boosts, status and feelings of superiority. Egalitarianism is a good thing in my view and when I use informal pronouns I feel like I am talking to people, not government bureaucrats. There is a time and place for formal pronouns and somehow forums, to me, are not one of them.


For similar reasons (the stand-offishnes, stiltness, and impersonality), I am reluctant about Czech "vy" as the default. Especially as all the Czech learners around here, that I know of, are approximately my age and people I would definitely invite to "ty" immediately, if we met in real life and it was up to me to decide. But, there are perhaps more people joining this small circle. And as far as internet communities go, both ty and vy are used. In the really public ones (like newspaper comment sections), vy is the default and ty is commonly used to intentionally offend people. (Really. Do you feel like arguing on the Czech internet and don't want to talk about the content of someones post? Easy. 1.become a grammar nazi 2.target people writing without diacritics, even if they are perfectly understandable (that happens in almost 100% of the cases), 3.attack with "ty") In large open public communities that feel less formal, ty can (but doesn't have to) be the standard,I have seen it. The distinction more or less respects the distinction of such communities in real life.

While I totally respect the formal and informal pronoun usage in real life, the online world feels different. I am in general less egalitarian than Tarvos, I appreciate more the value of progressing from mutual respect to closer friendliness being represented in the language (btw I know an unusual couple that used to use "ty", broke up, got back together agreed on never changing from "vy" to "ty" again, and now they are happily married). I still expect the vy in real life from most people. Actually, it was quite a shock to stop being viewed as "ty" (child) and start being "vy" almost overnight years ago. :-D "Vy" even has positive effects, teachers behaving respectfully towards us including use of "vy" had much fewer problem with students' bad behaviour. Now, I enjoy my "vy" in the real life, but feel weird about it when addressed that formally by other students (including unknown ones) on in informal settings. And this forum feels more like an equivalent of the informal settings than the formal ones, where I'd feel default "ty" and use "vy" towards people I know I would definitely put in the "vy" category in the real life. But I am still not sure

It is an emotional issue, and something changing in the individual european societies (I am not qualified to talk about the asian ones, for example, as I guess the situation tends to be even more complicated there). The informality of English spreads, the other societies fight back or go with the current. The more formal ones feel too stiff and outdated to people coming from the more egalitarian ones. The less formal ones tend to seem too superficial and disrespectful to people coming from the classical ones.
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Re: formal or informal on this forum

Postby Iversen » Tue May 16, 2017 11:03 pm

I would prefer to use the informal way of addressing people here, even though I would use the formal one in languages where it is the norm (like French) - at least to strangers. In Denmark the queen is probably the last person in the country who expects to be addressed with the polite "De" (at least "Deres majestæt" seems to be obsolete) . If I happened to speak to the Danish prime minister I would definitely use the informal "du" - but I know that the formal pronouns are used more consistently outside this country. And in English the formal "you" is the only one I use since I don't have to speak to God, who against all logic might expect the old singular pronoun "thou".
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Re: formal or informal on this forum

Postby Brun Ugle » Wed May 17, 2017 6:20 am

I feel like we're a group of friends so I'd find it rather strange if anyone on this forum started addressing me formally online or in real life. We don't distinguish formal and informal you in English anymore, but I think the closest equivalent would be if you were to start calling me Miss/Ms/Mrs instead of using my given name. Even though I am nearly 20 years older than you, I would find it unusually formal coming from someone I consider to be a friend.

Of course, I am probably influenced by the fact that my two best languages, English and Norwegian, are very informal in almost every situation, and my next best, Spanish and German, seem to be fairly informal in the kinds of situations we're talking about (forum and possible meet-ups).
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Re: formal or informal on this forum

Postby aaleks » Wed May 17, 2017 8:41 am

Cavesa wrote:Now, I enjoy my "vy" in the real life, but feel weird about it when addressed that formally by other students (including unknown ones) on in informal settings. And this forum feels more like an equivalent of the informal settings than the formal ones, where I'd feel default "ty" and use "vy" towards people I know I would definitely put in the "vy" category in the real life. But I am still not sure

Probably, there is no a universal solution for everyone. Speaking of my experience on Russian forums, usually before someone asks another person's permission to address to s/he "ты", they both already have been communicated some period of time and there are almost no doubts that the answer would be "yes". In most cases the question is just a formal politeness, but it's better to be asked anyway.

(Btw, '3.attack with "ty"' is fair for Russians too ;) )
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Re: formal or informal on this forum

Postby Random Review » Wed May 17, 2017 6:12 pm

FWIW and as far as Spanish is concerned, I think being addressed as 'usted' is among my least favourite things in the entire world, online or off.

Edit: not that it has ever happened to me online AFAICR. :lol:
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Re: formal or informal on this forum

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Wed May 17, 2017 6:40 pm

In this forum always address rdearman, iversen and me as "Your Majesty," but be informal with everyone else. :lol:
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Re: formal or informal on this forum

Postby perfektesLeben » Wed May 17, 2017 7:57 pm

I would use du but capitalized maybe. I write "Du" it's kind of in the middle of formal and informal :)
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Re: formal or informal on this forum

Postby Elenia » Wed May 17, 2017 8:05 pm

Brun Ugle wrote:I feel like we're a group of friends so I'd find it rather strange if anyone on this forum started addressing me formally online or in real life. We don't distinguish formal and informal you in English anymore, but I think the closest equivalent would be if you were to start calling me Miss/Ms/Mrs instead of using my given name. Even though I am nearly 20 years older than you, I would find it unusually formal coming from someone I consider to be a friend.

Of course, I am probably influenced by the fact that my two best languages, English and Norwegian, are very informal in almost every situation, and my next best, Spanish and German, seem to be fairly informal in the kinds of situations we're talking about (forum and possible meet-ups).


(Nothing to add, I just agree.)
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