Ways to study verbs

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CurlySue
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Ways to study verbs

Postby CurlySue » Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:55 pm

I’m wondering how everyone here goes about learning verb conjugations in languages that where verbs often change form.

Basically, there are (at least) two different ways to approach this:

1) Explicitly studying patterns and memorizing conjugations, or

2) Being immersed and learning each form of a verb separately as it comes along, e.g. learning “j’apprenais” (I was learning) separately from “il apprendra” (he will learn).

The first is more “traditional” and encouraged in schools, but the second approach is more natural. After all, “apprenais” and “apprendra” are spelled differently, pronounced differently, and mean different things – they are different words.

Having said that, if you’re dealing with a language where there are any patterns whatsoever (i.e. it’s not that each verb has a completely unique conjugation), explicitly learning the patterns can save you some time and serve as a bit of a short cut.

Which method do you prefer? Which have you used?

I spent quite a bit of time explicitly learning and copying out verb conjugations when I got started in French, but now I’m wondering if it’s worth doing the same in Hebrew, or if I should just do immersion and learn the conjugations piecemeal.
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Re: Ways to study verbs

Postby Xenops » Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:09 pm

I'm definitely more of a traditional learner in that regard: I want to be given clear rules before I can appreciate the game. I like Assimil, but I wish they were more up-front with verb conjugations.
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Re: Ways to study verbs

Postby Tomás » Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:30 pm

Both. Mostly #2, but occasionally looking at a grammar book so that I can recognize the conjugation patterns.
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Re: Ways to study verbs

Postby Speakeasy » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:04 am

In response to your two options:

Explicitly studying patterns and memorizing conjugations.
Rote learning: committing to memory basic elements of a large body of knowledge can free the mind to contemplate the higher-ordered concepts. Anecdotal evidence: some six decades ago, this was precisely how verbs were taught in the French classes that I attended. At the beginning of every class, students were required to write down the complete conjugations of selected verbs. No one other than the instructor spoke during the classes, students were only rarely called on to speak and, for all practical purposes, the focus of course was on the written language. I hated it! Fast forward: having never spoken the language, some 25 years later, at my request, my employer transferred me to a small company-town in the Québec interior where no one other than myself spoke English. I learned to speak the language (sur le tas) in the workplace. Not surprisingly, the first few months were quite a struggle; however I distinctly recall recognizing all of the verb conjugations as I encountered them "in real life". Despite the absence of any French language training/studying during the intervening years, I found the verb tenses really quite easy, so much so that my colleagues marvelled at the quick progress that I made. I ascribe the “advantage” that I enjoyed to the rote-learning of my youth. So then, yes, it works. Beyond the anecdotal evidence, in the languages that I have subsequently chosen to study (see the list), I have spent a great deal of time working specifically on verb conjugations and I have found that this investment paid great dividends as I progressed from the introductory to the intermediate and higher levels.

Being immersed and learning each form of a verb separately as it comes along.
Hypothesis 1: You mean a “full immersion” language-learning experience, with no preparation, no formal training, no independent study, no structure to the learning experience, no support from guides/teachers, just “diving in the deep end” and learning a language as child or an immigrant might. If you do mean this kind of learning, my experience suggests that this type of situation would be painfully difficult, prone to the acquisition of very bad habits of speech and, while effective in the long run, terribly inefficient. Bear in mind that, in real-world conversations, verb conjugations get tossed around quite a bit! Although my “anecdotal evidence” above suggests that this type of verb-learning is possible, I would underscore that I had somehow retained much of the French grammar of my youth, which greatly facilitated my learning of the spoken language. So, while you would eventually “figure it all out”, why put yourself through all the stress?
Hypothesis 2: You mean a structured approach to language-learning whereby verb tenses are introduced in a typically progressive fashion. There are sound pedagogical reasons why languages are generally taught in such a manner; there is little to be gained by tackling B2 level grammar if one is not yet competent at the A1 level. So, are we not back to choosing one of the many more popular, effective and efficient means of learning verb conjugations?
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Re: Ways to study verbs

Postby the1whoknocks » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:26 am

Started typing before I saw Speakeasy's post. I agree but but here are my thoughts:

I too approached learning conjugations using a combination of both methods but I spent much more time trying to learn them explicitly, at first. My experience as a language learner is limited and this answer is based mostly on anecdotal evidence but, to me, it seems that learning something like conjugations primarily through input would be inefficient. To explain ,,, I see conjugations a bit differently than general grammar. Some grammar study, I think, can better be left until one has a substantial amount of input but conjugations is probably something I will always approach head-on at first and then supplement with input. It seems easier that way, to me.

Like you, I spent some time copying conjugations but only as much as it took to be able to conjugate a verb once, correctly, without looking at the chart. Once I could do that, time spent watching YouTube videos with people explaining the conjugation, and it’s use, seemed to pay bigger dividends. Also, going through a book like Practice Makes Perfect - Spanish Verb Tenses or SpanishDict's grammar section which has plenty of exercises based on sentences (versus just trying to rote learn how to conjugate a certain verb) is something I'd probably do again.
Last edited by the1whoknocks on Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ways to study verbs

Postby aokoye » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:35 am

I'm one of those weird people who learns conjugations and declensions best by completing written exercises. Think the type of exercises that you would find in a Practice Makes Perfect book. I generally can recognize the conjugations and declensions pretty easily but actually producing it is what takes significantly more practice.

That said for Hebrew I barely had to study declensions and verb conjugations were a bit easier (though we only went through the present tense of three of the seven binyanim).

In short, for me it's not enough to just read it, I have to actually write it in context (so not just copying down a chart) for it to stick. How many times I have to do that it's going to likely depend on the language.
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Re: Ways to study verbs

Postby reineke » Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:11 am

I do it "very inefficiently". I find it effective and relaxing. I don't expose myself to "input" solely for the sake of learning vocabulary or grammar however the adult me doesn't want to deal with anything that is not likely to lead to results.
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Re: Ways to study verbs

Postby Chung » Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:47 am

CurlySue wrote:I’m wondering how everyone here goes about learning verb conjugations in languages that where verbs often change form.

Basically, there are (at least) two different ways to approach this:

1) Explicitly studying patterns and memorizing conjugations, or

2) Being immersed and learning each form of a verb separately as it comes along, e.g. learning “j’apprenais” (I was learning) separately from “il apprendra” (he will learn).

The first is more “traditional” and encouraged in schools, but the second approach is more natural. After all, “apprenais” and “apprendra” are spelled differently, pronounced differently, and mean different things – they are different words.

Having said that, if you’re dealing with a language where there are any patterns whatsoever (i.e. it’s not that each verb has a completely unique conjugation), explicitly learning the patterns can save you some time and serve as a bit of a short cut.

Which method do you prefer? Which have you used?

I spent quite a bit of time explicitly learning and copying out verb conjugations when I got started in French, but now I’m wondering if it’s worth doing the same in Hebrew, or if I should just do immersion and learn the conjugations piecemeal.


It's more of 1) than 2) for me in the languages that I've studied (Romance, Germanic, Balto-Slavonic, Finno-Ugric, Turkic, Mongolic, Korean) partially because I grew up on learning French conjugations by rote emphasizing the patterns, but also because in the languages that I've studied, it's indeed worth looking for patterns to varying degrees. Learning conjugation from the beginning with immersion makes more sense when dealing with "irregular" verbs of high frequency. In fact their high frequency means that the learner will get a lot of chances to use those verbs and encounter them in action by others starting from the early stages of learning. Within the languages that I've studied, "to be" and "to go" are usually a conjugational mess (especially the former; it's debatable to if "to be" exists in Turkic languages as understood from the prism of Standard Average European). If it's not the endings, then it's the conflation of stems, some of which had distinct forms and meanings (e.g. Czech jdu "(I) go" jdeme "(we) go" versus šel jsem "I went", šli jsme "we went") or stuff from left field that would make more sense if the learner had a background in historical linguistics (e.g. Hungarian vagyok "(I) am", van "(he/she/it/there) is" versus nem vagyok "(I) am not", nincs(en) "(he/she/it/there) is not").

In general, I like to get some background in the patterns, endings and senses conveyed before using them in drills and then in regular output (or seeing them in use either in contrived settings as in a coursebook's dialogue or more spontaneously as observable in the output of native speakers). However, verb conjugation in the Saamic languages taxed me big time when I tried my usual approach of focusing on patterns. Pilikku's log has this post which illustrates nicely the mental gymnastics needed to conjugate for the present tense in Inari Saami when analyzing the process as a series of rules.

Pilikku wrote:
Chung wrote:And I thought that I'd be the only one on this forum who'd ever give so much as a sniff at Inari Saami. It's nice to see someone take it further.

I envy you slightly by being able to study Saamic languages, although as a learner I found them to be frustrating to grasp. The consonant gradation being on overdrive, lack of crossover between singular and plural declension and tense conjugations, and inflectional patterns depending on the number of syllables in the stem were overwhelming.


I know so well what you mean with the vowel and consonant gradation. Also, verb conjugation is complicated, but I like the way it’s done. There is an easy path to follow. It works like Finnish. Lots to know before you can do it, but if you know everything you can do it. I will give you an example.

29.1.2017 [Inari Sami]

If you take a verb, like “njaahâđ” (to sneak/to bow)
There are 6 or less things you need to know before you can find the correct conjugation.
As you might know. They divide the verbs into 4 groups. 2-, 3- and 4-syllables and “supistuma”verb (I don’t know how to call it in English, but it’s like the “we don’t like to follow rules”-verbs, that you just need to know.) groups.

The first part, You must find out where the verb, belongs to. “Njaa-hâđ” belongs to group 2-syllable group.
2-syllable group: subgroups!
There are 5 subgroups in that group… I know. It’s pretty depressing. But it’s not hard yet.

The second part is to find out, which group does the verb belongs to:
-i body, -o body, -â body, -u body, -e body
After removing the đ from “Njaahâđ” you get the body: “Njaahâ”. So, this one is â-grouper.

The third part: vowel gradations (usually happens only in the first syllable)
Does the â-group have 1. syllable vowel gradations.
In present tense only â- and i-groups have vowel gradation if there is any.
In â-group they can be found in singular (she/he), dual (us) and plural (they)
In i-group they are found in singular only (I, you, she/he).
This is also where you have to check the length of the vowels. This happens only in groups â, i and u. In â- and u-groups there is change in vowel’s length like this.

singular: I (Long), you (Long), she/he (*)
dual: we (Short), you (Short), they -
plural we -, you (Short), they (*)
(*short if the vowel is a, i, o or u)

the 4th part: Moving to the middle consonant.
if it’s weak, you need to do the changes it need.

singular: I (Weak), you (Weak), she/he (Strong)
dual: we (Strong), you (Strong), they (Strong)
plural we (Strong), you (Strong), they (Strong)

There are some details in this, but I don’t know how to explain it in English.

the 5th part: The second syllable.
There is a table how to do this, but I will write only â part. This is all about the vowel harmony.
In the â-group: in singular (he/she) conjugation, the last “â” turns into “a” if in the first syllable there are “a” and into “á” if there is any other vowels. Keep the vowel harmony, like in Finnish.
In plural (they), if there is “ä”, “-uá-”, “-e-”, “-ie-” or “-ye-” the last vowel turns into “-i”. In case of “a”, “i”, “o”, “u” the last vowel is “e”.

And the LAST and the 6th part: Add the end.

singular: I (-m), you (-h), she/he (-)
dual: we (-een/-oon)*, you (-vettee), they (-v)
plural we (-p), you (-vetteđ), they (-h)
*-een = â-, i- and e-groups
*-oon = u- and o-groups

So here is the correct conjugation:
singular: I (njaahâm), you (njaahâh), she/he (njááhá)
dual: we (njähheen), you (njahâvettee), they (njaahâv)
plural we (njaahâp), you (njahâvetteđ), they (njäähih)
As you can see, the rules made it happen! Yay!

The other groups 3- and 4-syllable and “supistuma”verbs are way easier to make. They have less steps. There is same kind of system with nouns and adjectives, but also there are stuff you just need to learn without help of these.
If I have time, I can make same kind of thing for the nouns.


Saamic inflection is probably the hardest facet of grammar that I've ever dealt with because of the sheer number of rules that one needs to apply.
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Re: Ways to study verbs

Postby smallwhite » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:23 am

CurlySue wrote:Which method do you prefer? Which have you used?


I've used both rote and a combination of rote and input. Which method I prefer depends on the language. My comments are based on wanting to speak fluently, not just to be able to read or understand.

French conjugation can so easily be memorised by rote there's no reason not to spend that little bit of time to get the conjugation down pat to "free the mind to contemplate the higher-ordered concepts". I memorised at least the more common tenses and patterns very early on, and have always been reasonably fluent orally. I drilled rarer verbs and patterns as I went.

Spanish conjugation was harder to remember and easier to mix up. I did my drills anyway, but told myself not to worry too much when I got things wrong. Input fixed the rest.

Italian was similar, but I'm only B2 in Italian and I can't tell if input would fix "the rest" yet. I'm suspecting no, because stressed syllables aren't marked in Italian, and when I read I could be mispronouncing conjugated verbs in my head and I wouldn't know. And when I do my drills once in a while, I often forget where the stress should go, and I keep getting the familiar-you forms wrong. And that's after having more comprehensive listening input in Italian than in Spanish. In fact, I've been learning Italian more by input than by study as it's my 3rd romance language and there's hardly anything left to study, and I find my conjugation shaky.
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Re: Ways to study verbs

Postby tarvos » Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:44 am

It's both. Input is especially useful for irregular forms so that you remember what they are, but I like having the patterns because once the patterns are ingrained I can form new forms on the fly without having seen them beforehand.
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