The French Subjunctive

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Re: The French Subjunctive

Postby yong321 » Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:22 am

smallwhite wrote:To me, choosing between the subjunctive and the indicative is just like choosing between the infinitive and the gerund in English:

I enjoy swimming.
I enjoy to swim.
I like to swim.

and easier, because the need for the French subjunctive is clear and limited and can be grouped into categories. The English gerund thing differs with every single verb.


If I read you correctly, you want to show the three sentences here mean the same thing and which one to choose doesn't matter much. A small correction if you don't mind. "Enjoy" is not supposed to be followed by "to" + verb infinitive.

But if you actually wanted to show that the second sentence is incorrect, it would help by prefixing it with an asterisk.
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Re: The French Subjunctive

Postby smallwhite » Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:41 am

yong321 wrote:
smallwhite wrote:To me, choosing between the subjunctive and the indicative is just like choosing between the infinitive and the gerund in English:

I enjoy swimming.
I enjoy to swim.
I like to swim.

and easier, because the need for the French subjunctive is clear and limited and can be grouped into categories. The English gerund thing differs with every single verb.


If I read you correctly, you want to show the three sentences here mean the same thing and which one to choose doesn't matter much. A small correction if you don't mind. "Enjoy" is not supposed to be followed by "to" + verb infinitive.

But if you actually wanted to show that the second sentence is incorrect, it would help by prefixing it with an asterisk.


It was the latter case. I wanted to show that the "English gerund thing differs with every single verb" including when they have similar meanings ("enjoy" & "like"), which makes it harder than the French subjunctive where similar things ("I propose that" & "I suggest that") would require the same (subjunctive) mood.

I did what you said, but if I'm not a native English speaker, how am I supposed to know English well enough to and to be expected to put asterisks before ungrammatical English sentences?
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Re: The French Subjunctive

Postby Ani » Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:04 am

smallwhite wrote:I did what you said, but if I'm not a native English speaker, how am I supposed to know English well enough to and to be expected to put asterisks before ungrammatical English sentences?


Your English is flawless :lol: I understood exactly what you were getting at.
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Re: The French Subjunctive

Postby Ogrim » Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:16 am

Carmody wrote:Thank you so much.

Yes, I am in the panic and scared phase and the more I study the worse it gets.
Really.

Between the subjunctive and the passé simple or preterite, I have no idea how 66 million people in France are able to communicate in the written word.
Really.

My guess is that they are all really, really smart.

I wonder at what age the children start to use the subjunctive....


Children learn to use the subjunctive like the learn to use other verb forms, by listening and assimilating what they hear spoken around them. As I mentioned in another thread (about the passé simple), children books in French don't "simplify" the grammar, they use the different verb forms the same way as you will find in literature for adults.

As for communication in the written word: French children learn how to write using subjunctive in school. It does not mean that everyone is capable of using it correctly though, but a French man or woman who aspires to be a writer must of course know how to use both present and past tenses of subjunctive.

If your aim is reading French rather than speaking, then don't worry, the most important thing is to recognise a subjunctive when you see it, and possibly understand why they use subjunctive rather than indicative. Also, for most regular verbs (-er verbs, e.g. aimer, subjunctive and indicative forms in the present tense are identical for the most part, with only a minor change in 1st and 2nd person plural. It is mostly the irregular verbs which have a totally different form in subjunctive: je fais - que je fasse, je suis - que je sois, je sais - que je sache etc. Like Cavesa said, with exposure you will learn to recognise these forms.

A good resource for learning French verb conjugation is this site by the magazine Nouvel Obs. You type in the infinitive of any verb and you get the full conjugation, all tenses and moods.
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Re: The French Subjunctive

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:25 am

I created a somewhat extensive note on my phone and review sections of it via Anki. I keep adding to it as I come across more examples from grammar books mainly. ~80% of it comes from Hugo French in 3 Months and ~15% from Assimil Using French. The rest, from various resources. Here it is. It might be of use to someone.

LE SUBJONCTIF
(17)

We have a subjunctive mood in English, although it is used much less often than in French. In English, when we make a suggestion or express a wish, we use the subjunctive. 

For example, when we say:

'I suggest that a vote be taken' or 
'I wish today were Saturday', 

'be' and 'were' are subjunctives.
----------------------------------
You can think of the verb in the subjunctive as being 'joined' to another verb on which its existence depends.
----------------------------------  
In French, we use the subjunctive after verbs and expressions which denote:

(those marked * require ne before the verb)

1. (13)
a wish: 
vouloir, désirer, avoir envie = to want, to wish

a preference:
préférer = to prefer

a suggestion:
suggérer, proposer = to suggest
préconiser = to advocate, to recommend

a necessity:
falloir = to be necessary

a demand:
exiger = to demand

surprise:
être surpris(e) = to be surprised

regret:
regretter = to regret

anger:
être furieux/-euse = to be furious

fear:
avoir peur = to be afraid
craindre* = to fear
(* requires ne before the verb)

doubt:
douter = to doubt

possibility:
être possible = to be possible
s'attendre (à ce) que = to expect that

pleasure:
être content(e) = to be pleased

sorrow:
être désolé(e) = to be sorry
---------------------------------- 
2.
The subjunctive is always preceded by 'que' (that). It is formed in most cases by removing the -ent ending from the third person plural form of the present tense and adding:

je = -e
tu = es
il/elle = e
nous = -ions
vous = -iez
ils/elles = -ent

eg.
... que je parle 
... que tu donnes
... qu'il finisse
... qu'elle maigrisse
... que nous vendions
... que vous répondiez
... qu'ils mettent
... qu'elles permettent

eg
I want her to come early.
Je veux qu'elle vienne tôt.

He wants me to tell him the secret.
il veut que je lui dise le secret.

I would like you to fix an appointment for me at the hairdresser's.
Je voudrais que vous me fixiez un rendez-vous chez le coiffeur.

I would like you to cut my hair.
Je voudrais que vous me coupiez les cheveux.

I prefer him not to cut my hair too short.
Je préfère qu'il ne me coupe pas les cheveux trop court.

I want him to shave me.
Je veux qu'il me rase.

To recommend that we should do.
Préconiser que nous fassions.

You must put a little hair spray on my hair because of the wind.
il faut que vous me mettiez un peu de laque sur les cheveux à cause du vent.

I am surprised that the hairdresser doesn't sell combs.
Je suis surpris(e) que le coiffeur ne vende pas de peignes. 

I am pleased that you are talking to me in French.
Je suis content(e) que vous me parliez en français.
----------------------------------
3.
It is important to note that when the subject of the dependent verb is the same as that of the main verb, the construction with an infinitive is used. Compare:

I'd like to leave.
Je voudrais partir.

We'd like to leave.
Nous voudrions partir.

But:
We'd like you to leave.
Nous voudrions que vous partiez.
----------------------------------
4. (13)
There are some irregular subjunctives, and the most important are:

être (to be)
je sois
tu sois 
il/elle soit 
nous soyons
vous soyez 
ils/elles soient

avoir (to have)
j'aie [ɛ]
tu aies [ɛ]
il/elle ait [ɛ]
nous ayons [ajɔ̃]
vous ayez 
ils/elles aient [ɛ] 

aller (to go)
j'aille [aj]
tu ailles [aj]
il/elle aille [aj]
nous allions [aliɔ̃]
vous alliez 
ils/elles aillent [aj] 

faire (to do, to make)
je fasse
tu fasses
il/elle fasse 
nous fassions
vous fassiez 
ils/elles fassent

pouvoir (to be able)
je puisse 
tu puisses
il/elle puisse
nous puissions
vous puissiez
ils/elles puissent

prendre (to take)
je prenne
tu prennes
il/elle prenne
nous prenions
vous preniez 
ils/elles prennent

savoir (to know)
je sache
tu saches
il/elle sache 
nous sachions
vous sachiez 
ils/elles sachent

venir (to come)
je vienne
tu viennes 
il/elle vienne
nous venions
vous veniez
ils/elles viennent

vouloir (to want)
je veuille
tu veuilles 
il/elle veuille 
nous voulions
vous vouliez
ils/elles veuillent

devoir (have to, must)
je doive, 
tu doives
il/elle doive
nous devions
vous deviez
ils/elles doivent

boire (to drink)
je boive 
tu boives
il/elle boive 
nous buvions 
vous buviez 
ils/elles boivent

recevoir (to receive)
je reçoive 
tu reçoives
il/elle reçoive
nous recevions
vous receviez
ils/elles reçoivent

tenir (to hold)
je tienne
tu tiennes
il/elle tienne
nous tenions
vous teniez
ils/elles tiennent
---------------------------------
5. (18)
The subjunctive is also used after the following conjunctions - those marked * require ne before the verb:

quoique = although, though

bien que = despite the fact that, although, though

pour que = so that, in order that

afin que = so that, in order that

de façon (à ce) que = so that

pour autant que = as far as, in as much as

de peur que* = for fear that

de crainte que* = for fear that

à condition que = on condition that

pourvu que = provided, provided that, as long as, so long as

jusqu'à ce que = until

à moins que* = unless

avant que* = before

d'ici à ce que = before

sans que = without

ce n'est pas que = it's not that

que... (ou) que = whether... or

pour peu que = all one has to do is, all it needs, should one, if one

eg
Although he can speak French, he refuses to telephone Paris.
Bien qu'il sache parler français, il refuse de téléphoner à Paris.

I've bought you this mobile phone so that you can speak to me from time to time.
Je vous ai acheté ce portable pour que vous puissiez me parler de temps en temps.

As far as I know.
Pour autant que je (le) sache.

In as much as a comparison can be made.
Pour autant qu'on puisse faire la comparaison.

Guilty though he might have been.
Pour autant qu'il ait pu être coupable.

He is speaking (loudly) so that we understand him.
il parle de façon qu'on le comprenne. 

I'm quite willing to give you the CDs, on condition that you study every evening.
Je veux bien vous donner les CD, à condition que vous étudiez chaque soir.

Unless you help me, I won't be able to finish this exercise.
A moins que vous ne m'aidiez, je ne pourrai pas finir cet exercice.

I must stay here until my wife arrives.
Je dois rester ici jusqu'à ce que ma femme arrive.

They will still until we arrive.
ils resteront jusqu'à ce que nous arrivions.

Before he tells the truth, we have the time.
D'ici à ce qu'il dise la vérité, nous avons le temps.

Have a drink, unless you're in a hurry.
Prenez un verre, à moins que vous ne soyez pas pressé.

She arrived without me knowing (it).
Elle est arrivée sans que je le sache.

Whether you go or not, you will have to pay.
Que vous y alliez ou non, vous devrez payer.

Whether you go or not, I'll go!
Que tu y ailles u non, moi, j'irai !

Whether you walk or run, you'll never catch him.
Que vous marchiez ou que vous couriez, vous ne le rattraperez jamais.

Whether you receive fees or you earn a salary, you will have to pay taxes.
Que vous receviez des honoraires ou que vous touchiez un salaire, vous aurez des impôts à payer.

Whether one earns a good salary, fees or income, whether one receives unemployment benefit, or plays in the metro to earn one's bread, there will always be bills to settle, bills to pay and expenditure to make.
Que l'on touche un bon salaire, des honoraires ou des appointements, que l'on reçoive les allocations de chômage ou que l'on joue dans le métro pour gagner son pain, il y aura toujours des factures à régler, des relevés à payer et des dépenses à faire.

All you have to do is/Should you stroll through certain quaters of Paris and you will hear native Parisians speaking - and you won't get (or understand) much.
Pour peu que vous flâniez dans certains quartiers de Paname, pardon, de Paris, vous entendrez "jacter" les "titis Parisiens" et vous n'"entraverez" (ou comprendrez) pas grand-chose.

All you have to do is to encourage him, and he will do it thoroughly.
Pour peu qu'on l'encourage, il le fera à fond.

If he wants to, he'll succeed.
Pour peu qu'il le veuille, il réussira.
----------------------------------
The subjunctive is used after:
----------------------------------
6.
A superlative:

eg
This is the biggest book shop we have ever seen.
C'est la plus grande librairie que nous ayons jamais vue.
-----------------------------------
7.
seul (only), premier (first), dernier (last):

eg
Paul is the only who can go to the meeting
Paul est le seul qui puisse aller à la réunion.
----------------------------------
8.
An indefinite antecedent:

I'm looking for a doctor who can speak English.
(i.e. I'm not sure that one exists)
Je cherche un médecin qui sache parler anglais.

But:
I'm looking for the doctor who can speak English.
(i.e. I know he exists)
Je cherche le médecin qui sait parler anglais.
----------------------------------
9. (6)
Impersonal verbs,such as:

it is necessary that...
il faut que...

it is better that...
il vaut mieux que... 

it is important that...
il est important que...

it is possible that...
il est possible que...

it is inevitable that...
il est inévitable que...

it is a pity that...
il est dommage que...

eg
You must be on time.
il faut que vous soyez à l'heure.
I must talk to you.
il faut que je vous parle.
You must finish at 8.00.
il faut que vous finissiez à huit heures.

it is important that we reserve the rooms in advance.
il est important que nous réservions les chambres à l'avance.

it is a pity that he's not coming today.
il est dommage qu'il ne vienne pas aujourd'hui.
----------------------------------
10.
the negative of penser (to think) and the negative of croire (to believe) or sometimes when these verbs are used in a question - compare:

I think that Caroline is going to the reception.
Je pense que Caroline va à la réception.

I don't think Caroline is going to the reception.
Je ne pense pas que Caroline aille à la réception.
----------------------------------
11.
quoi que 

(whatever):

eg
...whatever you do...
...quoi que vous fassiez...
----------------------------------
12.
quel que, quelle que, 
quels que, quelles que

(whatever):

eg
...whatever the reason may be...
...quelle que soit la raison...
----------------------------------
13.
The subjunctive is also used for the third person imperative:

eg
Let him take the umbrella.
Qu'il prenne le parapluie.

Let her leave.
Qu'elle parte.

Let them do the washing up.
Qu'ils fassent la vaisselle.
----------------------------------
14.
The perfect subjunctive 
(or past subjunctive) 

This tense corresponds to the use of the passé composé in the indicative.

The perfect subjunctive is used for an action in the past. 

In the spoken language the perfect subjunctive is still used. However, it is important to point out that, the present subjunctive is used almost exclusively in spoken French.

It is formed with the auxiliary verb of avoir or être in the present subjunctive, together with the past participle of the verb in question :

eg. 
(donner)
que j'aie donné
que tu aies donné
qu'il/elle ait donné
que nous ayons donné
que vous ayez donné
qu'ils/elles aient donné

(partir)
que je sois parti(e)
que tu sois parti(e)
qu'il/elle soit parti(e) 
que nous soyons parti(e)s
que vous soyez parti(e)s
qu'ils soient parti(e)s

(Notice the agreement of the past participle with the plural pronouns when conjugated with être.)

This tense corresponds to the use of the passé composé in the indicative. 

eg
I am pleased that you found your wallet.
Je suis content que vous ayez retrouvé votre portefeuille.

I am sorry that she has fallen ill.
Je suis désolé qu'elle soit tombé malade.  

I doubt he left yesterday.
Je doute qu'il soit parti hier.

I'm afraid he has forgotten.
Je crains qu'il n'ait oublié.

I'm worried they've made a mistake.
J'ai peur qu'ils se soient trompés.
----------------------------------
15.
The Imperfect Subjunctive

This tense corresponds to the use of the imperfect in the indicative. 

The imperfect subjunctive is only used in literary French. 

In the spoken language and letter writing, the imperfect subjunctive is replaced with the present subjunctive.

Formed by dropping the last letter of the first person singular of the passé simple (eg. donner = donnai = donna) and adding the following endings:

-sse
-sses
-^t
-ssions
-ssiez
-ssent

The vowel of the 3rd person singular is either an a, i, or u.

It follows a main verb in the indicative forms of the 
imperfect, 
pluperfect,
passé simple, or in the conditional. 

So, 'perfect' French would give us:

eg
(après le conditionnel)
I would like you to give it to me tomorrow.
Je voudrais que vous me le donnassiez demain.
(but we would always use the present subjunctive in speech or letter-writing):
Je voudrais que vous me le donniez demain.

Here are some more examples in their literary (imperfect subjunctive) and spoken (present subjunctive) forms:

eg
(après le conditionnel)
I would be happy were you to come and see me.
Je serais content que vous vinssiez me voir.
Je serais content que vous veniez me voir.

(après le plus-que-parfait)
He had asked that we wake him.
il avait demandé qu'on le réveillât.
il avait demandé qu'on le réveille.

(après l'imparfait)
We weren't expecting her to start.
Nous ne nous attendions pas qu'elle commençât.
Nous ne nous attendions pas qu'elle commence.
-----
Notice the different tenses of the main verb; notice also the circumflex over the 3rd person singular. This is important because the third person singular of the imperfect subjunctive of être and avoir (eût and fût) are sometimes used elegantly to express the conditional aurait and serait:

eg. 
Un soir, après le dîner, Madame Vauquer lui ayant dit en manière de raillerie : « Eh bien, elles ne viennent donc plus vous voir, vos filles ? » en mettant en doute sa paternité, le père Goriot tressaillit comme si son hôtesse l'eût piqué avec un fer. 

We must not confuse these forms with the same persons in the passé simple. Il fut un temps : Once upon a time; il eut une grande surprise : he had a great surprise. Notice there is no circumflex.
----------------------------------
16.
The Pluperfect Subjunctive

This tense corresponds to the use of the pluperfect in the indicative.

The pluperfect subjunctive is only used in literary French.  

In the spoken language, the perfect subjunctive (past subjunctive) should be used, however the present subjunctive is used more commonly (see examples further below).

Formed with the auxiliary verb of avoir or être in the imperfect subjunctive, together with the past participle of the verb in question.  

It follows a main verb in the indicative forms of the 
imperfect, 
pluperfect,
passé simple, or in the conditional,
where a verb and a past participle are required in the subjunctive form.

eg
(donner)
que j'eusse donné
que tu eusses donné
qu'il/elle eût donné
que nous eussions donné
que vous eussiez donné
qu'ils/elles eussent donné

(partir)
que je fusse parti(e)
que tu fusses parti(e)
qu'il/elle fût parti(e)
que nous fussions parti(e)s
que vous fussiez parti(e)s
qu'ils/elles fussent parti(e)s

------
This tense corresponds to the use of the pluperfect in the indicative, so:
Je croyais qu'il était parti
Je doutais qu'il fût parti

The spoken language should use the perfect (past) subjunctive:
Je doutais qu'il soit parti

but even more commonly, would use the present subjunctive:
Je doutais qu'il parte.
----------------------------------
17.
Sequence of tenses in 
WRITTEN FRENCH

After the:

present indicative
future indicative
passé composé indicative

use the present subjunctive, 

or the past subjunctive if a verb and a past participle are required in the subjunctive form.
---------

After the:

imperfect indicative
pluperfect indicative
passé simple indicative
conditional indicative

use the imperfect subjunctive, 

or the pluperfect subjunctive if a verb and a past participle are required in the subjunctive form.

The imperfect subjunctive and the pluperfect subjunctive are only used in literary French.
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Re: The French Subjunctive

Postby Carmody » Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:27 am

Peter,

Thank you so much for your extensive answer. I have copied and pasted it to a file and will study it extensively.

Most appreciated.
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Re: The French Subjunctive

Postby smallwhite » Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:39 am

PeterMollenburg wrote:The subjunctive is always preceded by 'que' (that).
...
The subjunctive is used after:
...
An indefinite antecedent:
...
Je cherche un médecin qui sache parler anglais.
...

The first sentence in red is not true and contradicts with the next bit, for example.
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Re: The French Subjunctive

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:15 am

smallwhite wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:The subjunctive is always preceded by 'que' (that).
...
The subjunctive is used after:
...
An indefinite antecedent:
...
Je cherche un médecin qui sache parler anglais.
...

The first sentence in red is not true and contradicts with the next bit, for example.


I was kind of hoping someone would find at least something wrong with my post, as it would allow for editing and improvement. Thanks smallwhite. I will change always to often
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Re: The French Subjunctive

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:28 am

Carmody wrote:Peter,

Thank you so much for your extensive answer. I have copied and pasted it to a file and will study it extensively.

Most appreciated.


You're welcome Carmody. I recommend using it as a reference tool- something you can refer to at times to clarify your understanding of the various contexts in which the subjunctive is used. And for this I think, as many have pointed out, 'assimilating' the subjunctive via native content (eg reading) is a great way to go. Become familiar with how the subjunctive works, read read and read and refer back when necessary. Of course there are other ways to do it, but...

When I used to memorize a lot of this list, which I began making years ago (disclosure: by copying the subjunctive section from Hugo French in 3 Months almost word for word- and later adding to it from other sources- it's not my creation, it's all copied for the purpose of quick and easy reference), I found that I didn't really become somewhat ok at using the subjunctive until I'd come across the language in it's natural settings (ie not more grammar books or references). It's great to familiarize oneself with the rules so you know what to be on the lookout for, but I think another important component with learning the subjunctive is that it does have to be somewhat internalised through feel, which I believe comes with increased exposure to the language via native sources. Thus, check out the rules, then get exposure, and refer back as necessary.
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Voxel
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Re: The French Subjunctive

Postby Voxel » Sat Feb 11, 2017 8:26 am

Good job, Peter.

PeterMollenburg wrote:(those marked * require ne before the verb)
...
craindre* = to fear
(* requires ne before the verb)
...
The subjunctive is also used after the following conjunctions - those marked * require ne before the verb:

It's not necessary, it's an expletive.
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