Questions about Dutch sentences

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Jar-Ptitsa
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Re: Questions about Dutch sentences

Postby Jar-Ptitsa » Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:31 pm

tarvos wrote:They are different, vogeltje. It's just that the diphthong in English is something like /ai/ and it's more like /ei/ in Dutch. The two vowel sounds you run together are the "a" and "i" in English but an "e" and "i" in Dutch, although in some places it's a little raised, that's right. It's just that in some parts of NL, this sound has shifted closer to English. Not in Belgium, though. Like I said, the "like" sound is the closest you get in English - but it is definitely NOT equivalent.

Dat doesn't join anything. It just indicates a subclause (here), in which case the verbs go together at the end - and the separable verbs are in the full form, not with a loose preposition. In a main clause they would be separated.


I agree, that's exactly what I meant.

Except that I didn't know that in some parts of NL it's shifted closer to Eglish. English sounds nicer than Dutch, but the Dutch 'lijk' shifted closer to 'like' would be very ugly. But even with this shift it's a different sound. Normally it's completely different.

If you learn a langauge and think that one sound in the language is the same as one sound in your native language when it does NOT, then you will have a very, veyr strong accent in the language.

I had to work very hard to improve the vowels in the Germanic languages, they are all really difficult for example English 'or' and also the A in 'age' to make enough of the two sounds in each. But the consonants are different as well, and you can forget them but shouldn't, like "d" is different in the languages and of course 'H'. Then German and English have the more exploding sounds than French and Dutch, especially German!!!! Difficult to do or undo which depends on your own language.

I worked hard on my English pronunciation because I am fed up that in London they ask from where in France I am or assume that I'm french, and because I used to be a perfectionnist and sometimes I have that again. my boyfriend helped, although now he doesn't. I asked him why not and he said that he doesn't notice mistakes now, but I am sure it's not because I don't make mistakes, but becuase we have been together more than 2 years.

If an English speaker wants to pronounce Dutch correctly, then it's important to learn the different sounds, not match with English ones. In my opinion.
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Re: Questions about Dutch sentences

Postby tarvos » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:32 pm

I agree, but to make a sound you have to start from somewhere and then shift it.
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Re: Questions about Dutch sentences

Postby Jar-Ptitsa » Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:17 am

yes, you have to start, but if you say that a sound in the foreign language "takes" the sound of a word in your native langauge, then you will not learn the new sound, but you will pronounce it as the word in your own language.

With Dutch "lijk" for an English speaker (tommus or other one), for me (not native in NL or Eng), the closer word in English would be "lake" not "like", but even with "lake", the Dutch "lijk" has a longer vowel when it's stressed, and a schwa when it's unstressed.
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Re: Questions about Dutch sentences

Postby tarvos » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:49 am

That's the other possibility, start from "lake". Doesn't really matter which sound you shift.
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Re: Questions about Dutch sentences

Postby Jar-Ptitsa » Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:21 am

I don't undsterand why someone would start with a word in their own language to pronoucne a word in the language that they are learning. It seems better to listen and analyse the sounds and not think about your own language's words.

Anyway, to say that "lijk" takes the pronunciation of English "like" is obvioulsy wrong, we agree about this. Tarvos, i think that we agree about all this, onyl your first post about it made me think that we didn't.
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Re: Questions about Dutch sentences

Postby tarvos » Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:38 am

We agree, of course.

The reason I said what I said is because you cannot listen and analyse without having a starting point for your own pronunciation. You have to analyse what somebody says, but the problem is that not everyone can hear the difference until they start pronouncing the sound using the newfound mechanical information on how to do so. This is what gives people an accent - they simply can't tell the difference between subtle phonological differences when natives can (who won't distinguish other sounds in turn).

For English speakers, the "lijk" sound may as well be "like" - even though you and I know it's subtly different. So you start from "like" and teach them to shift the initial vowel up front in their mouth until they can pronounce it.
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Re: Questions about Dutch sentences

Postby Jar-Ptitsa » Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:27 am

tarvos wrote:We agree, of course.

The reason I said what I said is because you cannot listen and analyse without having a starting point for your own pronunciation.


A starting point, maybe it can be this, yes, but Tommus's profile has got that his Dutch is B2.

tarvos wrote:For English speakers, the "lijk" sound may as well be "like" - even though you and I know it's subtly different. So you start from "like" and teach them to shift the initial vowel up front in their mouth until they can pronounce it.


"start from" yes, so when you begin in your first lesson.

for me this difference "lijk" and "like" isn't subtle at all, but a totally, completely different vowel.

I have searcehd and I find this a very clear demonstration:




Image
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Re: Questions about Dutch sentences

Postby tarvos » Sun Oct 29, 2017 12:06 pm

vogeltje wrote:
tarvos wrote:We agree, of course.

The reason I said what I said is because you cannot listen and analyse without having a starting point for your own pronunciation.


A starting point, maybe it can be this, yes, but Tommus's profile has got that his Dutch is B2.


B2 says nothing about accent, only about how well you use the language. As long as you have a comprehensible accent, you can be A1 or C2, it doesn't matter. Not everyone values pronunciation as much as you and I do.

tarvos wrote:For English speakers, the "lijk" sound may as well be "like" - even though you and I know it's subtly different. So you start from "like" and teach them to shift the initial vowel up front in their mouth until they can pronounce it.


"start from" yes, so when you begin in your first lesson.

for me this difference "lijk" and "like" isn't subtle at all, but a totally, completely different vowel.

I have searcehd and I find this a very clear demonstration:




Image


Listen, phonologically speaking, they are two different vowels. No one is disputing that. The problem isn't with the actual sound, but with its perception, which is coloured by our native language. You and I can hear the difference because I'm a native speaker and you grew up with Dutch and French, which have a completely different phonological system. For English speakers, they can't distinguish the sounds mentally because their brain records them as variants of the two other sounds (namely the /like/ and /lake/ sounds), not as a different sound entirely. To learn how to make that distinction, you have to shift the sound and learn how to physically produce, train and recognize it. That takes time. And if you haven't done this at the beginning, which a lot of us DON'T do, then you have trouble with it later on.

There's no reason to be indignant about that. Sure, I start with phonology, but that's just me personally.
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Re: Questions about Dutch sentences

Postby Jar-Ptitsa » Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:35 pm

tarvos wrote:
vogeltje wrote:
tarvos wrote:We agree, of course.

The reason I said what I said is because you cannot listen and analyse without having a starting point for your own pronunciation.


A starting point, maybe it can be this, yes, but Tommus's profile has got that his Dutch is B2.


B2 says nothing about accent, only about how well you use the language. As long as you have a comprehensible accent, you can be A1 or C2, it doesn't matter. Not everyone values pronunciation as much as you and I do.


Yes, but Tommus doesn't know Dutch grammar at all, so if his accent is exactly as if Dutch were English as well, then he can't be B2. I think as well that you can be B2 if your grammar is B2 with a terrible accent, or vice versa, but not when both are A1.




tarvos wrote:
Listen, phonologically speaking, they are two different vowels. No one is disputing that. The problem isn't with the actual sound, but with its perception, which is coloured by our native language. You and I can hear the difference because I'm a native speaker and you grew up with Dutch and French, which have a completely different phonological system. For English speakers, they can't distinguish the sounds mentally because their brain records them as variants of the two other sounds (namely the /like/ and /lake/ sounds), not as a different sound entirely. To learn how to make that distinction, you have to shift the sound and learn how to physically produce, train and recognize it. That takes time. And if you haven't done this at the beginning, which a lot of us DON'T do, then you have trouble with it later on.

There's no reason to be indignant about that. Sure, I start with phonology, but that's just me personally.


I am NOT being indignant and i am NOT being argumentative or anything similar to those.

In fact I think that it's stupid and wrong to say that the sounds in a foreign langauge "take" the sounds from your native language.

This is especially when English is a modern hybrid which "TAKE ITSELF" the sounds from the OTHER langauges like Dutch or German, but it changed them over the centuries but you can see it in the English spelling. Of course Dutch didn't 'take" the English sound - that is completely wrong. Even if the sound were the same, which it is absolutely NOT at all.

I grew up with French, I learned Dutch when I was 12-13 and German 14, then later English. My Dutch isn't native, but I worked very hard to improve it when I was 12-13, when I could learn everything very quickly and wihtout problem. I mean I didn't learn Dutch like you learn your native language, but of course there was the TV etc.

I understand of course that Tommus is an English speaker and he can't hear the difference "lijk" and "like" but when he thinks that Dutch "takes" the English sound "like" then he will never learn it.

In my opinion (everything).
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Re: Questions about Dutch sentences

Postby tarvos » Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:42 pm

Of course it's wrong, but that doesn't mean we have to all beat down on him for saying it...
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