Questions about Dutch sentences

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brilliantyears
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Re: Questions about Dutch sentences

Postby brilliantyears » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:50 am

tarvos wrote:In modern Dutch that grammar construction would be a shipwreck (sure, we'd understand, but if you speak like that...)

Would it though? I mean, it's terribly old-fashioned, but most definitely not incorrect.

Shipwreck :lol: good pun.
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Re: Questions about Dutch sentences

Postby tarvos » Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:55 am

It's archaic, but I couldn't resist the pun. I'd regard it as incorrect in speech unless deliberately trying to evoke 18th century VOC sailors.
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Re: Questions about Dutch sentences

Postby tommus » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:00 pm

Een van beide was rood.
Een van elk was rood.

One of each was red. I would not say 'One of both ...' in English. Some people might. You could say 'One of them ..."

Are both Dutch sentences correct? Are there other variations?

Does the first one limit the number of objects to two, whereas with the second sentence, it might be one of several?
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Re: Questions about Dutch sentences

Postby brilliantyears » Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:04 pm

Eén van beide was rood.
[edit] Scrapping everything because I'm being confusing. Truth is, I don't know if "één van beide" is correct or not and I'm having an existential crisis over it.
"Eén van de twee" is an alternative you could use, i.e. "Eén van de twee was rood."
And you are correct, using 'beide' limits the number of objects to two.

Eén van elk is rood. -> Correct.
And in this case, the number of objects can be infinite. Here the meaning would be "one of each".

(Een or één doesn't matter by the way)
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Re: Questions about Dutch sentences

Postby tarvos » Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:51 pm

Één van beide is pretty much awful to these ears. I would give what brilliantyears suggested, or rephrase the sentence as "De ene is rood." (The fact there is a second is then implied).
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Re: Questions about Dutch sentences

Postby tommus » Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:49 pm

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Re: Questions about Dutch sentences

Postby brilliantyears » Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:01 pm

Honestly, I'm happy to dismiss every single use on the internet EXCEPT Onze Taal. And they use it as an example for 'een' vs 'één' here (spoiler: both is ok), but don't mention anything about the use of the full expression 'een van beiden'. (They also say 'beiden' instead of 'beide' - my mistake for not catching that.)
I trust Onze Taal with my (grammatical) life and they are the only reason for my existential crisis.
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Re: Questions about Dutch sentences

Postby trui » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:14 pm

tommus wrote:For an expression that sounds 'awful', 'een van beide' is sure used a lot:
[...]


In all of those examples, beide is used to specify a pair of people, not objects, and when it's used alone, you add an 'n'.

een van beide partners (One of how many partners? Both partners)
een van beide ouders (ditto)

vs.

'Nadeel als een van beiden in woning blijft'

to quote some of your examples.

In your first example, "Een van beide(n) is een telwoord", it isn't used to refer to people, but even they call the title a bit cryptic. It's also a bit of word play, since they're talking about the different forms of 'een' and how one of the two/both is a number. They even write 'beide(n)' as if they're unsure of which form is correct in this situation.

So in other words, you have to break it down. Een van means 'one of' and 'beide' means both, as in an adjective used in situations like 'both parents', 'both partners' etc. as shown in your examples. If both is used alone, it needs to be beiden, like the onzetaal link that brilliantyears gave said.

Hope this helps!
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Re: Questions about Dutch sentences

Postby tarvos » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:45 am

brilliantyears wrote:Honestly, I'm happy to dismiss every single use on the internet EXCEPT Onze Taal. And they use it as an example for 'een' vs 'één' here (spoiler: both is ok), but don't mention anything about the use of the full expression 'een van beiden'. (They also say 'beiden' instead of 'beide' - my mistake for not catching that.)
I trust Onze Taal with my (grammatical) life and they are the only reason for my existential crisis.


Seems fair enough :)
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Re: Questions about Dutch sentences

Postby tommus » Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:30 pm

tommus wrote: It is a bit historic in that it comes from the true story of the shipwreck of the VOC ship Batavia off Australia on her maiden voyage.
... This sentence comes just minutes before the Batavia runs at full speed onto a reef. This book is the most interesting book I have ever read in Dutch, and I am only starting Chapter 4 of 10. It is an excellent insight into Dutch society, the culture of the VOC, the challenges of sailing, and life in general in 1628/1629. I find it to be a 'page-turner' with never a dull moment. I have both the audio book and the exactly-matching e-book. The story is a translation from the original English so it is fairly easy listening/reading. I am really looking forward to the nearly 15 hours and 381 pages. The reader has an excellent and nice-sounding voice.

Well, I have just finished reading and listening to the "Batavia". It is undoubtedly a fascinating story, and now I look forward to further reading about it, in Dutch and in English. There is a wealth of online material, including modern research and photographs.

CAUTION: The second half of the book contains a very large amount of very graphic, gruesome violence of what happened on the islands and reefs following the shipwreck. It is almost sickening. I almost stopped reading. My plan was to listen to the story several times to improve my Dutch listening, but now I don't know if I will. Perhaps just the first half. The violence appears to be realistic and historically accurate, but the author appears to be overly fascinated with it, and really embellishes the facts with what appears to be poetic licence to make the violence more realistic. I wonder if he really needed to be so graphic.
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