Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

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PeterMollenburg
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:28 am

I’ve been reading back through this thread yet again as its full of really great advice.

Since passing DELF B2 around 6 months ago in May, I’ve barely advanced. A year has almost passed since I started this thread, and although B2 has been conquered, C1 still feels tantalizingly close yet impossibly far, just beyond reach (reminds me of an old NBA slam dunks video). So I’m resetting yet again, and when I get back from holiday in a week, the very serious drive to C1 recommences with more serious focus than ever. I’m quoting myself below from my own log. Yet again i’m revamping my routine in a desperate attempt to thrust myself forward like the fate of the human race depends on it. Too much stagnation for too long. Here’s the most earth shattering post you’ll ever read:

PeterMollenburg wrote:A little more dribbly waffle... mmmm waffles... no PM pas de sucre pour toi !

----------------------------------
Three to four hours/day :
------
A course:
(advanced grammar, prononciation)
• Assimil Using French
-----------
Extensive reading:
(immersion, fluidity)
• Easy French reader/ bilingual reader
• A book
-----------
Listening:
(The real language)
• Yabla
• Buffy with transcripts
-----------
Intensive reading
(vocabulary)
• Bien-dire
• Think French
----------------------------------

The above is nothing new (a four hour rotation of hour blocks of study). Each hour will include ten to 15 minutes of vocabularly study, and therefore each activity listed above really won’t be an hour but 45 or 50 mins.

The difference here, hopefully is synergy (a mix of focuses) and in particular consistency of at least 3 hours dedicated study every day - I’ve given myself a time limit, which I’m hoping will make a big difference. I’m actually going to sit the C1 in Nov 2018, rain, hail, sun or raging storm. I need to push on as time waits for no-one, and I’ve decided progress is more important than idiotic behaviour.

My wife and I had a chat about our future plans, money, work, family, languages, to get a clear indication of where we’re headed and how to get there. One conclusion was that I ought to work harder, smarter, more efficiently on my French, as I can’t be doing only French forever if I’m to make room for other languages in the not-so-distant future. Hence, the time limit and the routine. I’ll kick it off the day after we get back.
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby kraemder » Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:07 pm

Interesting thread but with all the posts I can't help thinking that everything's already been said. But maybe not. I read an interesting article by Luca at linguacore about specifically going from B2 to C1. He's done it at least in English and probably French and maybe more languages so I'm generally interested in what he has to say. And it happens I already agree with most of what he says which makes me think he's very smart indeed.

Anyway, his advice is just to go out of your comfort zone. Whatever that means to you. In his article he was more targeting people who relied heavily on SRS routines like Memrise or Anki to get to B2. So his thing was that you have to go use the language in challenging ways to make yourself grow. Totally makes sense to me. Anytime I'm out of my comfort zone I tend to learn show to deal with it so that it's not so damn stressful and frustrating.

When he talks about C1/2 it seems the emphasis is that you've achieved an academic level of expertise in the language. Typically one gets this by going to school and taking courses using the target language (not about the target language). I think you can definitely still get there by reading and writing stuff on your own but the pressure is off so it may take longer etc., and maybe you won't push yourself out of your comfort zone consistently enough to make it.
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby Cavesa » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:14 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:I’ve been reading back through this thread yet again as its full of really great advice.

Since passing DELF B2 around 6 months ago in May, I’ve barely advanced. A year has almost passed since I started this thread, and although B2 has been conquered, C1 still feels tantalizingly close yet impossibly far, just beyond reach (reminds me of an old NBA slam dunks video). So I’m resetting yet again, and when I get back from holiday in a week, the very serious drive to C1 recommences with more serious focus than ever. I’m quoting myself below from my own log. Yet again i’m revamping my routine in a desperate attempt to thrust myself forward like the fate of the human race depends on it. Too much stagnation for too long. Here’s the most earth shattering post you’ll ever read:

PeterMollenburg wrote:A little more dribbly waffle... mmmm waffles... no PM pas de sucre pour toi !

----------------------------------
Three to four hours/day :
------
A course:
(advanced grammar, prononciation)
• Assimil Using French
-----------
Extensive reading:
(immersion, fluidity)
• Easy French reader/ bilingual reader
• A book
-----------
Listening:
(The real language)
• Yabla
• Buffy with transcripts
-----------
Intensive reading
(vocabulary)
• Bien-dire
• Think French
----------------------------------

The above is nothing new (a four hour rotation of hour blocks of study). Each hour will include ten to 15 minutes of vocabularly study, and therefore each activity listed above really won’t be an hour but 45 or 50 mins.

The difference here, hopefully is synergy (a mix of focuses) and in particular consistency of at least 3 hours dedicated study every day - I’ve given myself a time limit, which I’m hoping will make a big difference. I’m actually going to sit the C1 in Nov 2018, rain, hail, sun or raging storm. I need to push on as time waits for no-one, and I’ve decided progress is more important than idiotic behaviour.

My wife and I had a chat about our future plans, money, work, family, languages, to get a clear indication of where we’re headed and how to get there. One conclusion was that I ought to work harder, smarter, more efficiently on my French, as I can’t be doing only French forever if I’m to make room for other languages in the not-so-distant future. Hence, the time limit and the routine. I’ll kick it off the day after we get back.


Hi, Peter. Your learning path is fascinating and admirable, don't let this discourage you! I strongly believe the idea of gradual slow learning bit by bit is not realistic, at least not for everyone. I find it totally normal to accumulate knowledge/input/practice for some time and then get over the treshold and "suddenly" improve. The accumulation may take various amount of time. Resistance to the frustration is conditio sine qua non though.

However, I think you are pushing yourself very hard and I understand your disappointment. I think a part of the problem may be too easy resources. Even if you master 100% of an easy resource, you will not get further than it allows you. May I have a few suggestions? I hope you won't find them discouraging or too critical, that is not my intention!

I find your overall idea and structure of the plan solid, but I think the chosen resources simply don't lead as far as you need. Which is ok, there is no One Course to Rule Them All, but one needs to be realistic and combine them wisely.

Courses and grammars: Assimil is good but I highly doubt it suffices for C1. It is definitely a good part of learning, but I think it shouldn't stand alone in this category. As you expect grammar improvement from it, I think something like Grammaire Progressive Avancé and Perfectionnement would be a good choice, perhaps with other workbooks. Assimil is simply focusing on other aspects of learning more than on reliable grammar acquisition. Practice is important and exercises, while many people find them dull, are a good way to internalise all the stuff. Another thing that may be posing a problem might be conjugations. As you should already have majority of the grammar, it is important not to make mistakes at something as easily fixable as conjugations. Plus all the new stuff can irrationally mess up with things that have been clear and well used for ages. I make a mistake occassionaly too, usually while writing and overthinking, that's why I am all for improving this. I made a huge memrise conjugation course that could help you as well.

For vocabulary, I really recommend srsing (for example Eunoia's memrise courses are great) but it is not necessary, I couldn't stick to it. Extensive activities work really well, but they need to be plentiful and challenging. Intensive work well, but we are back at srsing.

Extensive reading, whether you want "just" immersion or expect more: This is not challenging enough, you are too good for "Easy" anything. Choose any books you would like to read and begin. Of course it will be hard at first, that is the key to progress. Books for kids like those by Erik L'Homme are a good start, or a popular adult author like Mark Lévy or Jean Christophe Grangé (but the kids books are a bit easier at first of course). Or a BD, I think you might like Marjane Satrapi's Persepolis :-) It is definitely not stupid, it is not fiction, and the language is appropriate for an advanced learner who isn't too comfortable with full books yet.

"A book" won't suffice either. Not if you want to get results from extensive reading. It is even in the word. It is not just laziness, it is about huuuge amounts of reading. It is ok not to make such a commitment and use more intensive methods you can condense to your plan easier. It is possible to get to C1 without it, I don't think most learners taking the C1 exam have read that much, so you don't need to feel bad about not prioritising it. But without it, you cannot expect the results and feel discouraged by the lack of them.

Listening to the real language: The same story. Buffy is great for start but not sufficient. I find extensive listening much more important than extensive reading to be honest. And Yabla still may not give you enough stuff of sufficient level. If I may speak from experience, looooong pieces are much more efficient than short video clips, if you want to take the extensive path. Buffy is a good choice but won't suffice. If I were you, I would get rid of Yabla and any listening resources for learners. You need stuff by natives for natives, as ajatt says. Instead of Yabla, watch more Buffy episodes and choose an original series after it. For example an easier crime series (not Engrenages) could be a good choice, such as Profilage. Or another good dubbing before that (I loved Eureka).

Intensive reading and listening: I think tv series transcripts could help, if you can find them. Or real books using natural language (like the Sookie Stackhouse translations I profited from immensely, but of course there must be other choices). A good idea are articles from LeMonde and other websites (but be careful, of course the journalists sometimes make mistakes). Popular magazines like Science et Avenir are an awesome choice. Again something I profited from a lot. Perhaps resources for advanced learners like those you've mentioned can be useful, some authors try to make stuff for this level (and some are good at it), but they cannot be your main or only source.

I also recommend active search for your own gaps. Think in French during the day, watch the world around, everything you need and do in English. And if you cannot immediately think of a French equivalent or a way to express an idea, or a situation you couldn't deal with efficiently and with the appropriate style, write it down and look it up later. I found this awesome, even though it requires a lot of discipline to keep doing for a long time, more than I am capable of. Do not rely on your memory, you won't remeber all the stuff later. And really look it up and study. Noone can show you your needs and gaps better and more precisely than yourself.
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby AndyMeg » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:18 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:I’ve been reading back through this thread yet again as its full of really great advice.

Since passing DELF B2 around 6 months ago in May, I’ve barely advanced. A year has almost passed since I started this thread, and although B2 has been conquered, C1 still feels tantalizingly close yet impossibly far, just beyond reach (reminds me of an old NBA slam dunks video). So I’m resetting yet again, and when I get back from holiday in a week, the very serious drive to C1 recommences with more serious focus than ever. I’m quoting myself below from my own log. Yet again i’m revamping my routine in a desperate attempt to thrust myself forward like the fate of the human race depends on it. Too much stagnation for too long. Here’s the most earth shattering post you’ll ever read:

PeterMollenburg wrote:A little more dribbly waffle... mmmm waffles... no PM pas de sucre pour toi !

----------------------------------
Three to four hours/day :
------
A course:
(advanced grammar, prononciation)
• Assimil Using French
-----------
Extensive reading:
(immersion, fluidity)
• Easy French reader/ bilingual reader
• A book
-----------
Listening:
(The real language)
• Yabla
• Buffy with transcripts
-----------
Intensive reading
(vocabulary)
• Bien-dire
• Think French
----------------------------------

The above is nothing new (a four hour rotation of hour blocks of study). Each hour will include ten to 15 minutes of vocabularly study, and therefore each activity listed above really won’t be an hour but 45 or 50 mins.

The difference here, hopefully is synergy (a mix of focuses) and in particular consistency of at least 3 hours dedicated study every day - I’ve given myself a time limit, which I’m hoping will make a big difference. I’m actually going to sit the C1 in Nov 2018, rain, hail, sun or raging storm. I need to push on as time waits for no-one, and I’ve decided progress is more important than idiotic behaviour.

My wife and I had a chat about our future plans, money, work, family, languages, to get a clear indication of where we’re headed and how to get there. One conclusion was that I ought to work harder, smarter, more efficiently on my French, as I can’t be doing only French forever if I’m to make room for other languages in the not-so-distant future. Hence, the time limit and the routine. I’ll kick it off the day after we get back.


I think, at your level, you may benefit most by actively using french as a native speaker would. If you want to read something that REALLY interests you, try reading it/about it in french. If you want to take a course, look for online classes in french. Meet french people in french chats, watch movies and long series in french. By doing this you will find your weak areas and know exactly what you need to work/focus on.

Intensive activities may give you the most progress out of your time, but they also require a lot more energy than extensive activities, so I would suggest that you try to find a balance between time invested and energy required. Sometimes you don't have enough energy to do intensive activities, but you do have the time to relax a bit and enjoy extensive activities.

The key factor here is that whatever you choose to do in french it is something that genuinely interests and engages you. That way you will be improving your french as a by-product of you engagement with those activities. That's how I pushed my english beyond the B1 level. I know my english is not perfect, but now I can read novels in english, chat actively in english (I leave the Google translator window open just in case), take online classes in english, write my korean language learning log in english, watch TV series without subs, and much more. ;)
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby Cavesa » Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:05 pm

AndyMeg wrote:The key factor here is that whatever you choose to do in french it is something that genuinely interests and engages you. That way you will be improving your french as a by-product of you engagement with those activities. That's how I pushed my english beyond the B1 level. I know my english is not perfect, but now I can read novels in english, chat actively in english (I leave the Google translator window open just in case), take online classes in english, write my korean language learning log in english, watch TV series without subs, and much more. ;)


While this is excellent advice in general, it is not that easy in reality as English learning is truly different from everything else. No other language is so readily accessible, especially whenever native people are concerned. That's why I believe in being as independent from living natives as possible. They are not necessary for vast majority of the learning process and lack of opportunities to use them shouldn't become an excuse and source of frustration. It can very easily become frustrating.

The problems are numerous. The French natives often communicate in English online too, finding French chats and forums is not that easy. English has grown too strong and parasites on almost anything online with at last a bit of internationality. Natives of other languages than English, especially the French natives, prefer English as they don't care about other people learning the language and spending money and time on it. They have right to choose this attitude of course, but it is something learners need to take into account.

The English natives expect you to communicate in English as you must have been learning it for ages and other options don't even come to their minds. The French natives expect you to speak only broken touristy "French" which they don't want to be annoyed with. It is sometimes hard to overcome this prejudice even as a C2 speaker in certain situation, when the person decides to "treat the idiot kindly and help them by using broken English" before you even get the chance to open your mouth (it happens only when I travel with my obviously not English or French native family but it is still annoying). B2 learners (speaking from my own old experience) have very little chance, unless they happen to meet exceptionally reasonable people.

That is why learners of languages with more learner-friendly natives often sound a bit too patronizing towards the French learners. I don't know about non-european languages, but French trully is an exception about the mainstream languages (no such a problem with the Spanish, German, or Italian natives, not even at A1 level). There are often just two options. Speak English or pay for practice with a person used to talking with learners. Neither is "using the language like a native French speaker would."

However, the writing recommendation is great. If no other options are possible, there is always a personal diary or creative writing. A learner can make a large part of the corrections themself, if they look at the piece after a few days or even later. I am beginning to think there may be value in revising old writing assignments, looking at one's previous attempt with fresh eyes and more experience, and rework it. It is a strategy I am yet to try out. Finding people to simply correct and give feedback to advanced writing is not easy. Natives prefer to earn easier money by just chatting instead of spending time with someone's boring writing exercises.
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby reineke » Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:34 pm

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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby DaveBee » Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:53 pm

Cavesa wrote:However, the writing recommendation is great. If no other options are possible, there is always a personal diary or creative writing. A learner can make a large part of the corrections themself, if they look at the piece after a few days or even later. I am beginning to think there may be value in revising old writing assignments, looking at one's previous attempt with fresh eyes and more experience, and rework it. It is a strategy I am yet to try out. Finding people to simply correct and give feedback to advanced writing is not easy. Natives prefer to earn easier money by just chatting instead of spending time with someone's boring writing exercises.
I've bookmarked, but not yet read, a writing exercise book called 'exercises de style' (ISBN: 9782070373635). As I understand it is one scene rewritten 99 times, each time with a slightly different voice.
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby tarvos » Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:03 pm

Cavesa wrote:
AndyMeg wrote:The key factor here is that whatever you choose to do in french it is something that genuinely interests and engages you. That way you will be improving your french as a by-product of you engagement with those activities. That's how I pushed my english beyond the B1 level. I know my english is not perfect, but now I can read novels in english, chat actively in english (I leave the Google translator window open just in case), take online classes in english, write my korean language learning log in english, watch TV series without subs, and much more. ;)


While this is excellent advice in general, it is not that easy in reality as English learning is truly different from everything else. No other language is so readily accessible, especially whenever native people are concerned. That's why I believe in being as independent from living natives as possible. They are not necessary for vast majority of the learning process and lack of opportunities to use them shouldn't become an excuse and source of frustration. It can very easily become frustrating.

The problems are numerous. The French natives often communicate in English online too, finding French chats and forums is not that easy. English has grown too strong and parasites on almost anything online with at last a bit of internationality. Natives of other languages than English, especially the French natives, prefer English as they don't care about other people learning the language and spending money and time on it. They have right to choose this attitude of course, but it is something learners need to take into account.

The English natives expect you to communicate in English as you must have been learning it for ages and other options don't even come to their minds. The French natives expect you to speak only broken touristy "French" which they don't want to be annoyed with. It is sometimes hard to overcome this prejudice even as a C2 speaker in certain situation, when the person decides to "treat the idiot kindly and help them by using broken English" before you even get the chance to open your mouth (it happens only when I travel with my obviously not English or French native family but it is still annoying). B2 learners (speaking from my own old experience) have very little chance, unless they happen to meet exceptionally reasonable people.

That is why learners of languages with more learner-friendly natives often sound a bit too patronizing towards the French learners. I don't know about non-european languages, but French trully is an exception about the mainstream languages (no such a problem with the Spanish, German, or Italian natives, not even at A1 level). There are often just two options. Speak English or pay for practice with a person used to talking with learners. Neither is "using the language like a native French speaker would."

However, the writing recommendation is great. If no other options are possible, there is always a personal diary or creative writing. A learner can make a large part of the corrections themself, if they look at the piece after a few days or even later. I am beginning to think there may be value in revising old writing assignments, looking at one's previous attempt with fresh eyes and more experience, and rework it. It is a strategy I am yet to try out. Finding people to simply correct and give feedback to advanced writing is not easy. Natives prefer to earn easier money by just chatting instead of spending time with someone's boring writing exercises.


Or if you just go somewhere where nobody actually speaks English. It's different now, of course, but when I went to France for the first time, twenty years ago, nobody spoke English. When I lived with French people, they didn't speak English much if at all. It just depends on where you are and who you live with. In tourist contexts, I agree.

I find, the more I hang out with people in big cities, the bigger the odds they also know English. Which is why I try to get away from that type of situation. When I'm travelling with my family, that's not optimum language practice time. Or sometimes I just go like "C'est quelle langue ça ?" I never have trouble with them getting to speak French to me.
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby AndyMeg » Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:47 pm

Cavesa wrote:The problems are numerous. The French natives often communicate in English online too, finding French chats and forums is not that easy.

I'm asking because I really don't know: Do french people prefer to communicate online between themselves by using english and not their native french?

Cavesa wrote:That is why learners of languages with more learner-friendly natives often sound a bit too patronizing towards the French learners. I don't know about non-european languages, but French trully is an exception about the mainstream languages (no such a problem with the Spanish, German, or Italian natives, not even at A1 level). There are often just two options. Speak English or pay for practice with a person used to talking with learners. Neither is "using the language like a native French speaker would."

If that is the case with french, I think a person still can do other activities that don't need the disposition of a native speaker to talk to: watching movies and TV series in french, for example. Or reading books or blogs about topics that interest you. Those are activities I think a native french would do too (speaking french is not the only thing a native would do: they also read, listen to and write in french). Do native french people write english comments on french blogs? If they usually write comments in french, then that may be a good place to learn "french as used by natives" and to interact with natives in french.

And for improving your speaking you could imitate native speakers: maybe a french youtuber you like, or a character in a TV show. Try shadowing, for example.

My main point here, I guess, is that I believe that you can't become really advanced in a language if you don't use it (and here I'm not talking about knowing all the grammar rules or x amount of vocabulary, I mean being able to use the language for the things that you need and want to do/enjoy). There is some point in a language learning journey in which we need to switch the focus from "materials for learners of x language" to "materials made by native speakers for native speakers". And I think B1/B2 is an excellent point to start doing that.
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:05 pm

tarvos wrote:
Cavesa wrote:
AndyMeg wrote:The key factor here is that whatever you choose to do in french it is something that genuinely interests and engages you. That way you will be improving your french as a by-product of you engagement with those activities. That's how I pushed my english beyond the B1 level. I know my english is not perfect, but now I can read novels in english, chat actively in english (I leave the Google translator window open just in case), take online classes in english, write my korean language learning log in english, watch TV series without subs, and much more. ;)


While this is excellent advice in general, it is not that easy in reality as English learning is truly different from everything else. No other language is so readily accessible, especially whenever native people are concerned. That's why I believe in being as independent from living natives as possible. They are not necessary for vast majority of the learning process and lack of opportunities to use them shouldn't become an excuse and source of frustration. It can very easily become frustrating.

The problems are numerous. The French natives often communicate in English online too, finding French chats and forums is not that easy. English has grown too strong and parasites on almost anything online with at last a bit of internationality. Natives of other languages than English, especially the French natives, prefer English as they don't care about other people learning the language and spending money and time on it. They have right to choose this attitude of course, but it is something learners need to take into account.

The English natives expect you to communicate in English as you must have been learning it for ages and other options don't even come to their minds. The French natives expect you to speak only broken touristy "French" which they don't want to be annoyed with. It is sometimes hard to overcome this prejudice even as a C2 speaker in certain situation, when the person decides to "treat the idiot kindly and help them by using broken English" before you even get the chance to open your mouth (it happens only when I travel with my obviously not English or French native family but it is still annoying). B2 learners (speaking from my own old experience) have very little chance, unless they happen to meet exceptionally reasonable people.

That is why learners of languages with more learner-friendly natives often sound a bit too patronizing towards the French learners. I don't know about non-european languages, but French trully is an exception about the mainstream languages (no such a problem with the Spanish, German, or Italian natives, not even at A1 level). There are often just two options. Speak English or pay for practice with a person used to talking with learners. Neither is "using the language like a native French speaker would."

However, the writing recommendation is great. If no other options are possible, there is always a personal diary or creative writing. A learner can make a large part of the corrections themself, if they look at the piece after a few days or even later. I am beginning to think there may be value in revising old writing assignments, looking at one's previous attempt with fresh eyes and more experience, and rework it. It is a strategy I am yet to try out. Finding people to simply correct and give feedback to advanced writing is not easy. Natives prefer to earn easier money by just chatting instead of spending time with someone's boring writing exercises.


Or if you just go somewhere where nobody actually speaks English. It's different now, of course, but when I went to France for the first time, twenty years ago, nobody spoke English. When I lived with French people, they didn't speak English much if at all. It just depends on where you are and who you live with. In tourist contexts, I agree.

I find, the more I hang out with people in big cities, the bigger the odds they also know English. Which is why I try to get away from that type of situation. When I'm travelling with my family, that's not optimum language practice time. Or sometimes I just go like "C'est quelle langue ça ?" I never have trouble with them getting to speak French to me.


I am in New Caledonia currently. Despite practically everyone speaking French, this solution is not practical. I have been speaking French but it does not push me more than my studies back home (in fact far less). It’s very expensive here, and while I remain here I am losing considerable money by the day - it’s not practicle to stay here. I cannot work here (I already inquired prior to leaving Australia) as my qualifications are not recognised and having them recognised is lengthy, costly and simply not feesible. I cannot do other work as I have a family to support, I can’t just up and leave Australia on a whim - it requires extensive planning as three others rely on my wage and I have house payments etc to make, so I can’t just work in hospitality. I am here with my family, so running off to strike up random conversations that hopefully turn into lengthy challenging discussions is not only weird but selfish. I’m not that social, drinking holds no interest whatsoever to me, I don’t drink coffee, I don’t like noisy environments in part due to hearing issues, I don’t smoke. I’m in my 40s with a family- bars aren’t my thing (never were). When we get home just going somewhere where French is spoken is always expensive and always a huge undertaking. We are planning for 2.5 to 3 years away for next French immersion experience, I won’t wait till then to get my French practise, I need to study at home and I need to do so to actually improve my chances of getting suitable work in 2.5/3 years time in that French speaking environment. While I appreciate your suggestion tarvos, it really doesn’t suit my circumstances. If I were single, without children, then the situation would be extremely different and upping and leaving to immerse myself in a French speaking environment would certainly be more achievable.
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