Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

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Cavesa
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby Cavesa » Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:29 pm

Serpent wrote:
Cavesa wrote:It can always make a difference between passing and failing. As someone who has passed the DELF B2 exam with exactly the 50 points which were the minimum, I don't think anyone should approach the preparation differently from the "Any point can be the deciding one" attitude. You can get a lower score than expected at any part despite your preparation or sujective opinion on your performance. And as I lost some points without my mistake, (it the other parts, it was purely my fault), I think it is always good to hoard a protective pile of points anywhere possible.

I have no idea how the Finnish YKI exams are scored. I believe there wasn't any official information back when I took the C1/C2 exam.
You have to pass each section separately, you can't do well at reading and use that to compensate for listening. But you can totally score C2 at reading and "below C1" at listening (which doesn't certify being even B2).

Also, I do think that in the context of this forum it's good to distinguish between the useful strategies for passing exams and useful strategies for reaching a high level. Of course there's a lot of overlap.

Oh and I forgot to mention another example of the chocolate topping: learning various synonyms for good and interesting ;) :D


The French exams have two scoring requirements. You need 50/100 total. In the exams up to C1, you also need at least 5/25 of each part. In C2, you need at least 10/50. While nothing saves you from a score under 5 (10) in any part, you can balance out a weaker, but still above minimum, result in one of them.

actually the synonyms for good and interesting are not a bad thing to learn. Some trustful sources told me overuse of such words (and a few others) is a usual red flag concerning weak vocabulary of the candidate. It's not like "ha! he used "good" three times, ten points down." but more like "hmm, doesn't he know more advanced vocabulary than the first three course units?" And it is actually a great real life skill too, so it is definitely ice cream.
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby whatiftheblog » Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:03 pm

Cavesa wrote:1. Sure, courses are of limited utility, but stil can be a valuable piece of the puzzle. I have been progressing in Spanish well without using any courses for a few years, but there were many gaps. Courses are a good servant but a bad lord (not sure whether the saying makes sense in another language than Czech, and it is originally about fire). But it cannot be low quality or low level courses.


I realize that this will have a strong whiff of armchair psychology, so I apologize in advance if I ruffle any feathers, but... f I may be so bold: from what I've read here, I think this is a crucial piece of the puzzle for PM specifically. PM, I've only been hanging around for a couple months, but your French journey is interesting to me for many reasons, and I've been following your posts closely. I get the sense that you're subconsciously holding yourself back from the Cs, because otherwise I see no objective reason for you to be spending so much time on courses and graded readers and other learner-specific material at the expense of time spent on native material. You mentioned that you read a graded magazine, for instance, with "C1" texts and word lists - I'd wager that you're perfectly capable of reading articles on the same subject(s) written by native francophones for native francophones, but you haven't given yourself sufficient opportunity to do so.

You mentioned that you're naturally inclined toward digging for details and specifics, and that may be why you've focused so heavily on courses, but you've also spoken of struggles with time constraints, dragging course content, and fatigue, if I recall correctly. I'm almost positive these issues would resolve themselves if you spent more time with native material you enjoy. That way, you trick yourself into thinking it's leisure, and all of your skills expand as a result. I can honestly say I haven't experienced French "fatigue" since I went all native all the time. The only fatigue I have now, and major fatigue at that, is when I accidentally end up staying up until 2 am, having gotten sucked into the vortex of Emmanuel Macron-themed Youtube, for example :D

The other part that may be worth revisiting is a close and honest examination of what you're actually getting out of the courses you're doing. If it's grammar, then drill the grammar and leave the rest of it alone. If you're looking to grow your vocabulary, read more of anything - blogs, books, magazines, message boards, anything that will hold your interest. If you start reading through something and realize you're bored, don't torture yourself; move on in search of something that will keep you engaged, since your options are quite literally limitless. If it's listening comprehension you struggle with, watch anything you find interesting with subtitles - you'll soon discover you don't need them anymore if you let yourself just "fall into" the material.

I recognize that this is sort of getting repetitive, but I'm just a really big believer in the "falling in" method at the high B - low C level. I think courses are great in terms of getting to that level, but no course or combination of courses can compare to the benefits of all of the native material out there. Courses are limited (and limiting at this stage, imo) in terms of the vocabulary they contain and the type of material, invariably edited, that you're being exposed to, whereas with native material, you can access the entire vast expanse of all French anything ever produced/created/dreamed up.
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby Saim » Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:30 am

I like the metaphor Luca Lampariello uses to conceptualise the amount of time it takes (4:30):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NySKjOTbHsU

"The stretch between B2 and C1 is huge compared with the one from beginner to intermediate. ... It's a really long stretch, but the difference is that when you reach B2 and you're on top of the mountain, everything is like a looong slope, but it's easier than climbing up to the top. ... It's not as difficult as before because you start enjoying and using the language."

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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby garyb » Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:35 am

I firmly believe that reaching the level as suggested by the checklists and passing the exams are very different goals requiring very different learning strategies. My earlier comment about B2 to C1 taking years was influenced by my personal experience of pursuing the former goal, while I've never worked towards an exam. I agree that one can't really "fake" or "bluff" an exam very easily - if you don't have the wide base knowledge then you're not going to get very far - but I do think that there's a lot to be said for focusing a certain amount of study on the exam itself rather than on general language ability.

I repeat that I've not taken an exam myself, so take my thoughts with a pinch of salt and feel free to tell me if I'm making incorrect assumptions, but I've come across countless people who have passed C1 or C2 exams in English or French and what I've observed is that most of them make tons of basic mistakes in their speaking and writing and often have strong foreign accents, yet they have a wide knowledge and understanding that allows them to get by in most situations and converse about most subjects. The self-assessment checklists can be quite misleading in this respect, as they suggest that C1 candidates should be making relatively few errors and C2 candidates almost none. This says a lot about what one should focus on if passing an exam is the main goal: the important part is what you can do with the language, not how correctly you do it.

A good accent and solid grammar might be enough to convince the average native speaker on the street that you're awesome at the language, but they won't fool an examiner. Arguably the converse is also true: the skills to pass an exam might not be enough to convince the average native speaker, and it's not unusual for someone who has a C-level certificate to be switched on because of mistakes and accent giving a bad first impression. That's why I say they're different goals requiring different focuses.

I think of Cavesa's example of being understandably frustrated that her tutors didn't point out some basic pronunciation errors and she only discovered these much later, long after the C2. As much as that frustration is justified when you're paying somebody to help you improve, in one sense the tutors did the right thing by focusing on what actually mattered for the exam. After all, she still succeeded despite these faults.

As one perfectionist speaking to another, I'd say that if your primary focus is preparing for the exam in a short period of time, you should try your best to temporarily drop the perfectionism and focus on the practical side of what you can do in the language and how to use that to meet the requirements of the test, following the great advice already posted in this thread by people who have been there and done that. Pass the exam first and polish the basics later.
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:15 am

Cavesa wrote:One thing I have always admired you, PM, (one of more things, but talking about this one right now): how much time you are willing to consistently put into learning, how hard working you are. I think the time already invested will pay off and you'll get lots of value from it in your studies from now on too. I would love to be able to do so. 4 hours long sessions of anything! I am struggling even with 1 hour these days, and it is becoming a problem. How are you doing it?


I want to thank you for your admiration while I can, so thank you Cavesa...... but! I think the picture you have painted of me is not the reality of the situation. Yes I've done 3000 hours of study in 4 years, yes I'm pretty consistent and I try to work hard at improving my French, but the reality it this.

* The 4 hour plan I have presented is a 4 hour rotating schedule. What this means is I don't do four hours in one day, but I study X amount on any given day, perhaps one, two or three hours, (highly unlikely to be four, as I generally only ever aim for 3 max) and where I finish, say "hour 3" for example, I continue on the next day by beginning with "hour 4" as my first study hour of the day, then on to hour 1 and hour 2, and therefore beginning with hour 3 the next day, etc. I devised a rotating schedule because I have too many things I want to cover and I'm unikely to do it all in one day, but I know myself well enough to know that there are too many interruptions, distractions, procrastination and so on, that a rotating schedule sees me being able to cover all things I want to cover without being worried about not doing it all in one day.

* In the last few years my average study amount per day has been below 3 hours a day, despite having a goal of 3 hours a day. I might devise rotating plans of 3, 4, 5 hours, but I don't even make it to three hours of actual study. Many days I might only do 1 hour, sometimes none, but that's rare. And my average has dropped over the last three years.

* My rotating schedule is for what I call dedicated 'desk study' time. This works well for me, I find it motivating, very much so, to have a planned schedule. This way, I wake and I know my priority is my study schedule with a target of three hours completed. However the time that I log when I add up my hours includes everything I do in French. Meaning, the podcasts I listen to on the way to work, or while walking the dog, doing the dishes or gardening, the television I watch while eating breakfast, the reading I do before sleep (not when I read to my daughter though, or the odd brief news article). Thus the actual hours I keep track of, which average out to just over 2 hours this year, include in reality, probably only a little over one hour a day of whatever scheduled 'desk study plan' I am using like the one presented in this thread.

* An unbalanced approach to my learning (ie course heavy) is likely not solely to blame for my frustration in progress. I don't stick to courses in a dedicated manner in anywhere near as much persistance and dedication as the majority of people here probably think. When you look at my numbers in the previous point (a little over an hour of desk study time averaged a day) and then count the fact that i'm not always doing courses, i'm actually not doing that much in the way of courses (I've done 250 hours of courses this year out of over 330 days of study). Thus I'm not so consistent as it appears.

* I devise many study plans. Honestly the amount of times i"ve made delcarations in my log, like completing "the Big 5" for example, I've done 10 times as much hashing, mashing and rehashing of my study plan (or rotating study schedule if you will) away from my blog. Some days pass in which I spent half an hour devising a great new rotating study plan only to a few hours later, tweak it again, then later that night stay up late rehashing it all over again. This is where my idealism meets uncertaintly and crosses with lack of consistency or getting bored easily. This is where my current log title holds true- the one thing i've remained committed to, is continuing to learn French, hence my log title- "Persistent French, Inconsistent Declarations". Oh and on the topic of my study schedule- i've already altered it numerous times (with more to come) since posting it ;)

* I still waste time. My original log title a few years back was PM's anti procrastination log. I still procrastinate in many ways, such as refusing to study my courses but I do (95% of the time) replace my procrastination with something else in French, often drastically reduced in time, but still something. This week has been something of a mid-life language crisis for me, and i've not studied hardly at all, but at least I'm still listening and watching. I'm aiming to hit the ground running with this new approach. Staying up way too late is another thing I do. I fight sleep and put undue stress on my body by doing so, by distracting myself too much at night and finding it difficult to switch (myself) off. Then I wake early, end up tired, lack energy and motivation, struggle to study, neglect exercise and so on. The last year I've been particularly bad at this. I'd like 2017 to be better, that's my aim.

* I should be more in awe of your accomplishments Cavesa, than mine. I know what undertaking medicine entails. I have some idea of what studying multiple languages entails. I'm geting a good picture over time, of what it takes to bring a language up to a C2 level. You do all then and then some. It's incredible. I don't know where you find the energy and how you push through. Then again I put a massive amount of energy into my sport when I was younger, perhaps if I had that kind of energy again I could do it, but pushing yourself physically with plenty of down time is very different to pushing yourself like you do, mentally and physically with little down time if any. Oh and not to mention I keep waffling on about living in another country, and you just up and do it! That is not an easy process. In the middle of your medical and language studies you also have the time to go through the whole application process, deal with another culture and all it's red tape and up and move to another country all while doing all that study! I'm not that admirable when you look at all my earlier points and then read this one about you. You're doing and incredible job Cavesa, and I don't think anyone on this forum would deny that. Oh and I truly appreciate your input here btw, thank you for caring. And if anyone else is reading this and has posted, I appreciate your responses equally as much, thank you.
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:55 am

Unfortunately iguanamon I"ve still not managed to completed the ODA tests. I got half way last night and purposely left my web browser open. And what do you know, it disappeared on me the next day!

Iguanamon has gone a long way to try to encourage me in transitioning to native content. I want to thank you for that iguanamon. However I also want to make clear in general here, that I have for a long time been using native content, admittedly in spurts. More recently again following iguanamon's encouragement and pushing myself I had changed my study schedule to introduce more reading once again and more watching. However I've just not been doing as much study lately as i'd like to, thus I'd not gotten very far with it. Even my course study has suffered- i'm barely progressing lately. I have ditched the audio courses and have been listening to podcasts to and from work and I do believe my listening skills aren't half bad. I do know the value in native content and I don't want that this thread only see me as one dimensional. I have been using native content I'm probably just not using it enough both within and outside of my scheduled study hours, nor have I been patient enough with the process perhaps.

I also want to say that I will continue to use courses and my French learning magazines. What i'm in search of here, now I believe, is a much more well rounded approach that gets me to the level I want to be at, by pushing me beyond my comfort zone and still allows me to enjoy some of the pragmatic sources of learning material I enjoy. Some agree that courses are still warranted, others don't. I do enjoy them, so they will stay (one at a time most likely), but only as a small portion of my routine, and only the more advanced courses, or those geared towards exams, or even those aimed at adressing a particular deficiency. The French learning mags are actually very very interesting to me. That are not too easy either, as they are decent articles often with much "tougher" content than regular pop media and the one source that I can almost say is dedicated to acquiring new vocabularly intensively more so than the others, which is created by natives with translated words in the columns to speed up comprehension (many use electronic texts with imbeded dictionaries or spend much time looking up words, I don't see this as much different, just easier to use). I find it really interesting to read about all things French/France/Francophone in nicely presented high quality graded articles. BUT, I will most definitely include time for speaking, writing, listening, and reading much more so than I have in the past.

My current plan is like this:

With a target of 3 hours total desk study time:

First hour each and every day
One hour extensive reading

Then, follow with this rotating schedule :
(ie 2 of these hours to round out the 3 hours total for the day, continuing where left off the day before)

one hour
speaking/writing (as mentioned previously)

one hour
15 min SRS + 45min of:
Intensive reading

one hour
15min SRS + 45 min of:
Listening
or 60min: Listening

one hour
15min SRS + 45min of:
Advanced course


I made changes to my schedule because:
1. I feel like reading for an hour a day first thing to ensure I get it done holds a lot of value given my weaknesses.
2. I wanted to still allow dedicated time for a good course.
3. I wanted to still allow time for my French learning mag's (contrary to recommendations and cringes I might produce mentioning these, they are a valuable tool I believe).
4. Speaking still features but not every single day as I realise this is unrealistic.
5. I have slightly reduced listening time by pushing reading to first hour every single day. I've done this because I feel my reading needs a push, and because I do much more listening in my free time, than I do reading (ie on the way to work, eating breakfast etc). So, listening is still definitely in, but I place reading as the most important (in reality speaking probably is even more important but I think the routine i've devised is more realistic while allowing me to push ahead with reading).

Now I need to actually apply myself to this routine and stick to it more so than I have done in the last few years. I'm not being hard on myself, I just think I will definitely see the benefits of doing so. 1 or even 2 hours a day won't be as good as 3 in such a synergistic schedule aimed at raising th bar.

Edit: As for native content I enjoy. My reading has much of this (extensive reading-interests such as spirituality, health, conspiracies, while intensive reading is all about the Francophone world, good mix for me!). As for watching, not so much, but I think it's high time I invested in a VPN for what very little time I have left spare in the day.
Last edited by PeterMollenburg on Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby DaveBee » Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:36 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote: As for watching, not so much, but I think it's high time I invested in a VPN for what very little time I have left spare in the day.
You might be able to receive France 24/TV5 monde in Oz already, and there's a number of french language series available on YouTube.
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:50 pm

DaveBee wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote: As for watching, not so much, but I think it's high time I invested in a VPN for what very little time I have left spare in the day.
You might be able to receive France 24/TV5 monde in Oz already, and there's a number of french language series available on YouTube.


Thanks DavebBee. I do use SBS Australia a lot, BFMTV occasionally and YouTube quite a bit, so finding things to watch is easy. I was thinking with a VPN it's only going to increase my options and in all likelihood the possibility of finding more material that interests me personally.
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby smallwhite » Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:57 pm

If you were to take a surprise exam now, what marks do you think you'll get?

?/10 Reading
?/10 Writing
?/10 Listening
?/10 Speaking
?/10 Grammar
?/10 Vocabulary
----------
?/60
=======
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri Dec 09, 2016 1:13 pm

smallwhite wrote:If you were to take a surprise exam now, what marks do you think you'll get?

?/10 Reading
?/10 Writing
?/10 Listening
?/10 Speaking
?/10 Grammar
?/10 Vocabulary
----------
?/60
=======


I'm trying to work this out with assessments, i will report back when I have sth concrete, but i'll have a guess at your question. Let's imagine it's a B2 exam.

7/10 Reading
6.5/10 Writing
6.5/10 Listening
5/10 Speaking
6.5/10 Grammar
7/10 Vocabulary

Why focus on reading then? I sincerely believe it will assist all other areas- help activate vocabulary by improving memory recall and therefore activating it for speaking and writing, augment grammatical understanding, solidify and deepen vocabulary use/shades of meaning in various contexts, aid listening, improve pronunciation via reading out loud, assist writing.
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