Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

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Cavesa
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby Cavesa » Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:30 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:I am in New Caledonia currently. Despite practically everyone speaking French, this solution is not practical. I have been speaking French but it does not push me more than my studies back home (in fact far less). It’s very expensive here, and while I remain here I am losing considerable money by the day - it’s not practicle to stay here. I cannot work here (I already inquired prior to leaving Australia) as my qualifications are not recognised and having them recognised is lengthy, costly and simply not feesible. I cannot do other work as I have a family to support, I can’t just up and leave Australia on a whim - it requires extensive planning as three others rely on my wage and I have house payments etc to make, so I can’t just work in hospitality. I am here with my family, so running off to strike up random conversations that hopefully turn into lengthy challenging discussions is not only weird but selfish. I’m not that social, drinking holds no interest whatsoever to me, I don’t drink coffee, I don’t like noisy environments in part due to hearing issues, I don’t smoke. I’m in my 40s with a family- bars aren’t my thing (never were). When we get home just going somewhere where French is spoken is always expensive and always a huge undertaking. We are planning for 2.5 to 3 years away for next French immersion experience, I won’t wait till then to get my French practise, I need to study at home and I need to do so to actually improve my chances of getting suitable work in 2.5/3 years time in that French speaking environment. While I appreciate your suggestion tarvos, it really doesn’t suit my circumstances. If I were single, without children, then the situation would be extremely different and upping and leaving to immerse myself in a French speaking environment would certainly be more achievable.


Yes, that's why I recommend a lot of stuff for a recluse learner :-)
Vast majority of us simply doesn't have the luxury of just leaving our sofa and living abroad for half a year, the cost would be too high and we wouldn't be the only ones to pay it. I consider myself very lucky to have the opportunities but I didn't have them not that long ago. And I won't have them some time from now again. I am in a rare window with various possibilities. But that is a priviledge, not something automatic.

Having the practice opportunities is great but not necessary. I didn't have any such opportunities but a few short touristy ones (=worthless at the level) during the 5 years between my B2 and C2 exam. By the time I started intensive preparation for the C2 exam, I had already been at the level as far as speaking went. The tutor was for the writing. The tons of listening and other alone activities simply worked.

I can see how frustrating this is, you have 2.5-3 years to become damn good at French. They'll probably take you even at B2, the French healthcare is getting a bit desperate in some areas, all the healthcare professions are in huge demand in vast majority of the EU countries these days. But communication with patients (= mostly older people with accent from their home region, with hearing conditions, neurologic troubles, breathing troubles etc) at B2 must be a real pain.

I've seen a few immigrant nurses there. The most memorable one was obviously a Spanish native. She was an excellent nurse. Her language skills were great as far as comprehension went, very good actively. She had no problem working there despite making a not that serious yet still notable mistake every few sentences and an accent screaming "Spanish native" immediately. So, don't let your worries stress you too much. :-)

The good news: you can get there on your own, 3 years are definitely enough for such an endeavour, especially with your discipline and attitude. You are awesome! Your "lack of progress" now doesn't mean anything serious in the long run. You'll get there! :-)
The bad news: we may need to learn a few dialects of Arabic too. This is in no way an opinion on the current demographic changes, it is a simple observation based on 6 months in French hospitals. And perhaps some Mandarin may come useful once in a longer while ;-)
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:30 pm

As usual, a very supportive community here full of great advice. A few brief responses from myself.

I really feel like going full native will work wonders (ie no resources just for learners of French), with the exception of Bien-dire and Think French, which ate excellent for learning advanced vocabulary and a genuine alternative to SRS and my written word lists, should I decide to ditch them as well (already ditched SRS a while back - open to returning to it if the need/desire arises)....

....However, knowing me, I cannot ditch couses completely. I intend to complete the second wave of Assimil Using French and follow it with French in Action (Assimil I’ll continue to write down unknown words, FIA I’ll use more of an immersion approach). After that, perhaps the Grammaire Progressive series and/or exam specific course books will suit well. All these are rather useful. Yabla I will use solidly until my subscription runs out end of March, then I’ll go to series, beginning with Buffy.

I’ll progress through my reading materials beginning with the easy readers. As per an article that reineke provided a link for in which Paul Nation describes the benefits of reading via graded readers that are seemingly too easy, there is still much benefit from such reading. After I complete them, I’ll move on to progressively tougher material, which shouldn’t feel too much tougher as my vocabulary expands.

I’ll continue to use my French learning mags. Whether I continue with word lists or restart SRS or ditch both remains to be seen. I’m hesitant to leave intensive vocabularly learning behind, but at least with the learning mags there’ll be plenty of word lists, so perhaps I could stop writing out my own lists too (which ate made up from words out of Assimil, books, etc). Maybe I shouldn’t use Assimil or any courses in that way, and should only use them for grammar and prinunciation and hope to assimilate the vocab more naturally with reinforcement from other resources (reading listening, intensive reading from the learning mags etc).
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby garyb » Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:58 am

Cavesa's posts are spot-on - I get sick of seeing the usual copy-paste advice of "find native-speaker communities and act like a native" etc. Well-intentioned as it may be, it's just not realistic, especially not for French. Cavesa has already explained very well why, and I'd add that if you try to join in a native-speaker community as a foreigner who knows the language any less than perfectly, you won't necessarily be welcomed very well.

French is particularly bad for all this, but the grass isn't always greener on the other side either: these days many Italians and Spaniards also dislike using their language with learners and prefer to respond in broken English, and with the way the world is going things are only going to get harder for those of us who choose to swim against the tide and try to use another language rather than just submit to the dominance of English. The other night I was speaking with a friend who wanted to learn Danish but was put off because "Danes see it as an insult to their English if you speak to them in Danish". Italians (judging by several conversations I've had with Italian friends), while having a much lower English level in general, often feel like they "should" be able to get by in English and using Italian with a non-native can seem similarly insulting and shameful. Taking any language from B2 to C1 requires not only a good few years of work but also a very thick skin. A good reason for learning it, if not for motivation but in order to justify all that effort to native speakers and to yourself, is also a big help.
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby tarvos » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:35 pm

Cavesa's posts are spot-on - I get sick of seeing the usual copy-paste advice of "find native-speaker communities and act like a native" etc. Well-intentioned as it may be, it's just not realistic, especially not for French. Cavesa has already explained very well why, and I'd add that if you try to join in a native-speaker community as a foreigner who knows the language any less than perfectly, you won't necessarily be welcomed very well.


The real issue is that communication is always tough, and so there has to be something in it for them. Benny Lewis used to quote them his rates for English teaching! It's never just as simple as "join a native-speaker community". You've always got to have more than that up your sleeve if you want to do immersion well; I even found people in China that wanted to speak their Chinglish with me. I invariably responded to them in Mandarin. There's a certain social give-and-take going on here where people see English as the prestige language, and you're seen as easy pickings because you're a foreign tourist (which means they can either take your money or use you for English practice). It's not easy to act like a native because there are things you should be doing you don't know about; and they may be much more subtle clues than the ones people always seem to key in on. It's not just about accent - it's about mannerisms, dress, body language, cultural references.

I remember there was a great blog post by Benny Lewis on how he got rid of touts in Egypt and people coming up to him wanting to speak English. It was because of the way he walked and dressed! Once he'd ditched his bright sports shoes, grown out his moustache, worn way-too-hot clothes for the temperature, and started jumping headlong into Cairo's terrible traffic, only then did people stop treating him as a gullible tourist - because his mannerisms showed he was at ease with the culture.

As a tourist it's very hard to give a flying dingo's kidney about these things, and I got told off for them after MONTHS LIVING IN SPAIN, precisely because I didn't fit in as a vegetarian Northern European who keeps her distance from people and who hates being touched and who doesn't smile or speak. Spaniards think you're asocial when you do that.

I DON'T think anyone sees it as an insult - I think it really has to do with a lot more complex parts of human interaction than just the linguistic part. You can pay to circumvent that - or you can spend months learning how to overcome these social barriers the hard way, and that's not even taking into account things like accent. Like I said in another thread, I've never even had this trouble in Sweden (!!!!) which is supposed to be notorious for having people switch on you. The reason was probably that besides my reasonably good (B2-ish, maybe more) Swedish, I had a certain way of behaving there that made them feel at ease (in a few cases prompting bewildered questions such as: "Aren't you actually Swedish?" One woman had me produce my ID and asked me questions to prove I could really master Swedish and wasn't joking about being Dutch when I was buying ferry tickets to Gotland. Once jeff_lindqvist and I were having falafel in a restaurant and some people came by and heard me talking Swedish and were surprised to find out I was actually Dutch - you can confirm this anecdote with him!). And that didn't just have anything to do with my Swedish, even though I won't deny I speak Swedish well! It's all about HOW you carry yourself and WHAT you present to them and what they can get in response.

Keep in mind that in many regions, English is the ticket to a better life, a better job, a better EVERYTHING. You're just a passers-by to them and they know it. You've got to convince them you're there to stay in their life and that their life will somehow benefit from you adapting to their community, rather than vice versa. In some situations this is easy, in some situations mere first appearances can do the trick, and sometimes this is really hard for whatever reason it may be (cultural or financial), or sometimes the onus is on you to figure out the trick (like in Benny's Egyptian example) because their culture is so different. And in some places, like in Asia, you'll always stick out like a sore thumb - but fortunately their English skills are still poor enough that we can derive benefit from learning Korean, Mandarin, Japanese or Thai.

When I was in France in 2012, I went to Brittany, and speaking French was not an issue for me, despite the fact I was B1-B2. It's true that that isn't the most touristy region of France, but I spent most of that week outside in the sun reading French books and wandering through villages. So I don't know why or what happened to Cavesa - it feels like there must be subtle things that they are clueing in on that we're doing wrong when people speak English to us.
Last edited by tarvos on Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby Cavesa » Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:10 pm

The usual "subtle" clues:

1.Other people, such as family or a boyfriend. Boyfriend is easier, he is not exactly shouting like a group of people that includes children.

2.Looks. Just like you, Tarvos, a friend of mine had a huge problem in Spain due to her "northern" looks, but you are just much more skilled at overcoming this than a normal person. For people with not that above average social skills, the looks are hard to overcome. I got being offered a part time job or something right at the airport as I look like a "normal european that might be from here" in most european countries. She never got the opportunity to speak, as she was a high blonde with blue eyes. Should she dye her hair and use false bronzing cosmetics while travelling? Or how should she insist on using Spanish while her Spanish is not perfect (and we are definitely talking about leaners of all levels here), or how should she insist enough on using Spanish without seeming rude? I think women are also at a disadvantage here (compared to a man like Benny for example), as various sociological and psychological studies proved we have a much smaller window between not being persuasive enough and being seen as unbearable bitches.

Of course some people run around in crocs with a camera hanging from their neck or a selfie stick but I don't think you need to be just as extreme to be singled out as not belonging there. It is like a masquerade. As Benny sensibly points out, many people dress up weirdly abroad, the switch from their norm to a "tourist style" and just need to get rid of it and get back to the normal one, just more or less adapted to the country. But what the hell am I supposed to do? I even wear stuff I buy in the country. It is a paradox. To look more like local girls, I would have to get the ugly globalised style perhaps.
Honestly, I considered that option. But I simply cannot see myself wearing uncomfortable jeans, ugly shorts shoes, and t-shirts of the style that really doesn't fit my figure in the city. The widely known french or spanish style is simply no longer true in my generation. Where is the visual line between an out of the norm dressing local and and out of the norm dressing foreigner? If I was wearing the typical punk style, would they expect me to be a local or foreign punker? :-D

But clothes can still be changed. But some things cannot. One example was that blonde friend in Spain. Or one's race. A european will always look foreign in Japan. Or physical constitution. Even healthy good looking average czech young women are fatter than their spanish or french counterparts. They are slenderer despite active sports being much less popular among them, despite just walking instead of public transport being less popular, despite ignoring various food restrictions we would be fat without (the popular spanish midnight snacks with white bread and nutella or the normal french girls eating white bread all the time are good examples). It is partially lifestyle but also genetics, epigenetics (which has a lot to do with climate among other stuff), quality of even the unhealthy food and I don't know what else.

To follow Benny's advice and blend in, I would have to lose 10kg and completely change my wardrobe to get a globalised one. In Japan, I would also have to become even smaller and get a few plastic surgeries. Simply getting rid of the touristy atributes is not enough.

3.Another thing you cannot change are the expectations of free English practice. I totally agree with Tarvos' and Benny's methods, but it is still not easy to get rid of the language bandits. And I am not a native English speaker and my spoken English is far from that! Even blunt pretending not to understand any English and using Czech on them sometimes doesn't work .

Language banditry has been discussed various times on the forums and I think a lot of good information can still be found there.
..............................................

To the original question: would anyone know what is the situation among Greek, Hebrew, or Finnish natives?
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby tarvos » Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:52 pm

Cavesa wrote:The usual "subtle" clues:

1.Other people, such as family or a boyfriend. Boyfriend is easier, he is not exactly shouting like a group of people that includes children.

2.Looks. Just like you, Tarvos, a friend of mine had a huge problem in Spain due to her "northern" looks, but you are just much more skilled at overcoming this than a normal person. For people with not that above average social skills, the looks are hard to overcome. I got being offered a part time job or something right at the airport as I look like a "normal european that might be from here" in most european countries. She never got the opportunity to speak, as she was a high blonde with blue eyes. Should she dye her hair and use false bronzing cosmetics while travelling? Or how should she insist on using Spanish while her Spanish is not perfect (and we are definitely talking about leaners of all levels here), or how should she insist enough on using Spanish without seeming rude? I think women are also at a disadvantage here (compared to a man like Benny for example), as various sociological and psychological studies proved we have a much smaller window between not being persuasive enough and being seen as unbearable bitches.


That's the point, though - the Spanish people thought I was totally asocial - and I don't have above average social skills. The reason I learned Spanish was because I lived in a village of 2000 people where there's just nothing else to do because truly no one speaks English there.

Where I lived in Spain, there were definitely blonde girls. Not so many, but they definitely existed. But what's way more important than the hair colour is the proximity and gestures you use. If you stand ten miles away, Spaniards think you're weird as all hell. There's a completely different vibe you give off - you need to speak louder, stand closer to people and don't be shy about a bit of touch. Why? Because that's what Spanish people do - they're not out to molest you. Usually, anyway. People in Spain can be dark-haired but look distinctly foreign and strange because they don't understand the Spanish BODY language. This is MUCH, MUCH MUCH more important than your language skills.

Of course some people run around in crocs with a camera hanging from their neck or a selfie stick but I don't think you need to be just as extreme to be singled out as not belonging there. It is like a masquerade. As Benny sensibly points out, many people dress up weirdly abroad, the switch from their norm to a "tourist style" and just need to get rid of it and get back to the normal one, just more or less adapted to the country. But what the hell am I supposed to do? I even wear stuff I buy in the country. It is a paradox. To look more like local girls, I would have to get the ugly globalised style perhaps.
Honestly, I considered that option. But I simply cannot see myself wearing uncomfortable jeans, ugly shorts shoes, and t-shirts of the style that really doesn't fit my figure in the city. The widely known french or spanish style is simply no longer true in my generation. Where is the visual line between an out of the norm dressing local and and out of the norm dressing foreigner? If I was wearing the typical punk style, would they expect me to be a local or foreign punker? :-D


It's different if you're a tourist. And I think, also in Spain, people have different types of fashion sense.

But clothes can still be changed. But some things cannot. One example was that blonde friend in Spain. Or one's race. A european will always look foreign in Japan. Or physical constitution. Even healthy good looking average czech young women are fatter than their spanish or french counterparts. They are slenderer despite active sports being much less popular among them, despite just walking instead of public transport being less popular, despite ignoring various food restrictions we would be fat without (the popular spanish midnight snacks with white bread and nutella or the normal french girls eating white bread all the time are good examples). It is partially lifestyle but also genetics, epigenetics (which has a lot to do with climate among other stuff), quality of even the unhealthy food and I don't know what else.


In Japan and China, just forget about it. There you have to take advantage of your status as a gaijin. Completely different story.

To follow Benny's advice and blend in, I would have to lose 10kg and completely change my wardrobe to get a globalised one. In Japan, I would also have to become even smaller and get a few plastic surgeries. Simply getting rid of the touristy atributes is not enough.


It isn't, but actually you don't need the surgery. For example, another thing Benny did was always carry a lighter on him in Egypt! Why? Because people smoked. Even though HE didn't smoke, this helped his appearance. He changed his gait. That's what I'm talking about. In China, you accept gifts with two hands. Not with one. Using one is WEIRD. Those are the things you need to keep in mind. It's not *just* about clothes - it's about giving off the outward appearance that you are confident with the culture and that you understand the other person's habits.

3.Another thing you cannot change are the expectations of free English practice. I totally agree with Tarvos' and Benny's methods, but it is still not easy to get rid of the language bandits. And I am not a native English speaker and my spoken English is far from that! Even blunt pretending not to understand any English and using Czech on them sometimes doesn't work .

Language banditry has been discussed various times on the forums and I think a lot of good information can still be found there.


Language banditry is more common in certain situations and circles.
..............................................

To the original question: would anyone know what is the situation among Greek, Hebrew, or Finnish natives?


Greeks and Israelis can switch to English in tourist situations (especially Israelis because their knowledge of English is generally superior to that of Greeks). In Greece, I lived in Chania, which is touristy as hell, but I always managed to get in some Greek outside of the tourist areas - it's always been easy for me. Don't know about Finland, but I think it's similar to all the other Scandinavian countries.
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby rdearman » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:01 am

ロータス wrote:I'm surprised no one here has mention talking to natives online through apps like Hello talk.

I was just about to ask the same question of Peter, although HelloTalk I find is very poor for conversations.

Peter if you added up all the money you've spent on French Courses to get to your B2 level, then budgeted the same amount of money for 1 hour speaking sessions with native French speakers how much better would your French be in 2-3 years time? For example, I've been spending $8.00 US for 1 hour of conversation practice each week.

Anyway, regardless of all the great advice about reading and other activities which have been given, I say; start talking. I've been doing this a lot for the last month, and I have to say I'm seeing improvements in my French. But the improvements don't have anything to do with new vocabulary, or better grammar. It is more just the fact French comes quicker now. I can speak more fluidly just because the words are becoming "active" rather than "passive". I know this sounds a bit trite, but it is sort of like intellectually knowing something vs doing it every day. When you first start driving everything is a chore and you have to be careful and you're not really sure of what is going on. You're also scared most of the time, but intellectually you know everything you need to know. After a few years of driving you find yourself driving on auto-pilot. If you're not concentrating, you end up driving yourself to your house instead of the market like you intended. :)

I know it is expensive, and one of the main reasons I resisted doing it for so long was the cost. I've discovered that it is money well spent if I'm going to converse with French people like I want. I think you're probably way ahead of me in French (in fact I'd bet money) so speaking shouldn't be a problem. Like I said in another thread the fact you're paying them for an hour to only speak in French has advantages which your holiday doesn't.
  • You're not leaving your family to go speak with someone else.
  • You can arrange a time which is good for you and doesn't conflict with family or work obligations.
  • You can choose people with different French accents to get used to them. Belgium, France, North Africa, Canada, etc.
  • You don't need to worry about them switching to English if you falter because you're paying them for 100% immersion time.
  • They can recommend books, films, TV, comic books, etc. which they feel might be correct for your level, or that you'd enjoy.
  • You can wear headsets which help eliminate problems related to any hearing issues.
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby garyb » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:11 am

I can confirm that appearance isn't the most important thing. With my dark features I can easily fit in in most of Southern Europe (although I will say I'm much taller than the average there) and my dress style isn't too different from how guys of my age dress in Spain, Italy, etc., but everybody still identifies me as a foreigner as soon as I open my mouth if not before. I reckon it's due to the factors already mentioned like body language, confidence, and of course accent. That said, I did once meet an Englishwoman with pale skin and red hair who spoke fluent Italian with a near-perfect accent yet complained that Italians replied in English because of (in her opinion) her appearance. I suppose you just have to work with and make the most of what you've got.

I agree that online tutors or exchanges are great especially as a stepping-stone for building speaking ability and confidence, but for me at least one of my goals is to interact socially with people in real life and it can feel frustrating when I can't get the real thing unless I pay. For a beginner or intermediate learner, of course many natives are likely to switch to English to make the interaction less painful. But when you're close to C1 as I was with French before I gave up on it, and people still don't want to use the language with you for real communication even if their English level is low, you start to wonder why you're bothering to learn it.
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby PeterMollenburg » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:57 pm

All this talk of people switching to English greatly disappoints me, and of course I’ve experienced this myself too. In New Caledonia it seems less likely than Europe. Just yesterday, in a very touristy situation on a small bus tour my family and I ended up on our own in the minibus with one other tourist. I ended up playing translator between the female driver and this guy as he launched questions at her and she was looking at me completely lost. Turns out she was filling in and that usually she just does the airport transfers and not the tours in which tourist locations are the objective.

In the Netherlands my wife and I regularly experienced locals switching, and at B1 that makes sense, and it was useful. After some months I was confidently able to avoid them switching or at least not until much later in the conversation. Sometimes, I would continue in Dutch and they would revert back to Dutch seeing that there was really no need for English.

Still, I would much rather a more balanced world. English is creeping in everwhere. Even Netflix is now doing it’s part to spread American cultural and linguistic influence. Music is already predominantly English everywhere, economics/business has seen English grow in the last couple of decades by leaps and bounds, and now American/English TV/cinema via another English dominated medium (the internet) among many other things, is set to drive the desire for the ‘cool’ in the young even further. Globish is well on its way, and I am not a fan.

Rdearman: Excellent advice. I’ll institute regular paid conversations in the near future indeed, as much (all actually) of your points talk a lot of sense. Thank you kind sir.
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby Xenops » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:57 pm

Someone would have to find the original post, but I think it was iguanaman that said “I would love to talk to anyone, in any language.” Being a language forum, obviously we like languages other than our own, but we have to remember the end goal is communication.
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