Smallwhite needs help with English expressions

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Adrianslont
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Re: Smallwhite needs help with English expressions

Postby Adrianslont » Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:36 am

eido wrote:
Le Baron wrote:
Adrianslont wrote:I am familiar with medicos and I speak Australian English.


It makes sense. 'Medico' seems to follow a common Aussie slang pattern like: 'smoko', 'dero' (derro?), 'arvo' etc.

As you can see from my choices I've watched quite a lot of Prisoner. :D

I just guessed what it meant because it's similar to the Spanish word for "doctor," médico. American English does that a lot. It takes Spanish words and remixes them into English versions, and I figured this was another. Looks like Google is telling me this particular iteration is from Italian (coming to us in the 17th century, it seems), so close enough.

Eido, yes, to be sure, etymology is not always an exact science - it can be open to conjecture.

In the case of “medico” I think we did get it from the US. I have a feeling it predates our use of the terms “ambo” and “garbo” and “derro” for ambulance driver, garbage collector and derelict person respectively.

And my general impression is that Australians have been making diminutives with “ie” and “y” for longer and more commonly than with “o”. See “hanky” “piccie” etc.

This is just my conjecture but based on my long experience ie I’m old. I often notice my viewpoint is different to others who just don’t know what people were saying in the sixties and seventies eg “medico” “garbo” and “derro” were common but I didn’t hear “ambo” until decades later.

Speaking very generally I think people everywhere invent all sorts of folk etymology, especially with slang terms. I have heard Australians say that certain words are of Australian origin when they are clearly not. I’ve even caught our national dictionary, The Macquarie Dictionary, indulging in this.

And of course Australians aren’t the only ones to make diminutives with “o” and “ie”

Le Baron, I have never been able to make it through a single episode of Prisoner! But I have seen enough to know that it offers valuable insights into Australian English!
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Re: Smallwhite needs help with English expressions

Postby smallwhite » Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:00 pm

Help! Question tag eg. "They are here, aren't they?":

"You've been doing nothing, ____ you?"

Thanks :)
Last edited by smallwhite on Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Smallwhite needs help with English expressions

Postby luke » Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:08 pm

smallwhite wrote:Help! Question tag:

"You've been doing nothing, ____ you?"

"You've been doing nothing, what's with you?"
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Re: Smallwhite needs help with English expressions

Postby smallwhite » Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:24 pm

luke wrote:
smallwhite wrote:Help! Question tag:

"You've been doing nothing, ____ you?"

"You've been doing nothing, what's with you?"

:lol: Not what I was expecting but even better!
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Re: Smallwhite needs help with English expressions

Postby lingua » Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:20 pm

smallwhite wrote:Help! Question tag eg. "They are here, aren't they?":

"You've been doing nothing, ____ you?"



haven't you? is what I would have written and probably more what you expected, yes?
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Re: Smallwhite needs help with English expressions

Postby luke » Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:59 pm

smallwhite wrote:Help! Question tag:

"You've been doing nothing, ____ you?"
luke wrote:"You've been doing nothing, what's with you?"

Depending on tone of voice, may indicate irritation or concern.
lingua wrote:"You've been doing nothing, haven't you?"
Also depends on voice, but sounds shaming. (?) Could also be irritation or concern, depending on vocal inflection.

What kind of attitude are you trying to project smallwhite?

Even if the ____ is left blank, could be any of those emotions (concern, irritation, shame).

But I think lingua is right if you're trying to communicate something like the edit you did to the example question: eg. "They are here, aren't they?"

(had to revise my understanding of tag questions :))
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Re: Smallwhite needs help with English expressions

Postby smallwhite » Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:04 am

luke wrote:
smallwhite wrote:Help! Question tag:

"You've been doing nothing, ____ you?"
luke wrote:"You've been doing nothing, what's with you?"

Depending on tone of voice, may indicate irritation or concern.
lingua wrote:"You've been doing nothing, haven't you?"
Also depends on voice, but sounds shaming. (?) Could also be irritation or concern, depending on vocal inflection.

What kind of attitude are you trying to project smallwhite?

Even if the ____ is left blank, could be any of those emotions (concern, irritation, shame).

But I think lingua is right if you're trying to communicate something like the edit you did to the example question: eg. "They are here, aren't they?"

(had to revise my understanding of tag questions :))

Concern not without irritation and shaming describes my feeling :)

I only know "question tags" to refer to the positive-negative / negative-positive grammar thing:
You did it, didn't you?
You didn't do it, did you?


I considered rephrasing my Whatsapp message to "You've been doing nothing, right?" but it didn't sound right.

With the negative-positive type of question tags, "not" makes the verb negative, but when I typed my message, I felt that "nothing" makes the verb negative as well (like French ne pas and ne rien are both negators) -
You did nothing, did you?
feels right.

But the negation felt weak in my sentence, probably because the "nothing" was far away from the verb:
You did, whether intentionally or otherwise, nothing, didn't you?
feels right.

:?:
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Re: Smallwhite needs help with English expressions

Postby Gordafarin2 » Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:42 am

smallwhite wrote:With the negative-positive type of question tags, "not" makes the verb negative, but when I typed my message, I felt that "nothing" makes the verb negative as well (like French ne pas and ne rien are both negators) -
You did nothing, did you?
feels right.

But the negation felt weak in my sentence, probably because the "nothing" was far away from the verb:
You did, whether intentionally or otherwise, nothing, didn't you?
feels right.

:?:


By my instincts, it can be:
You did nothing, didn't you?

or

You didn't do anything, did you?

And I'd be more likely to say the latter, especially to emphasize: You didn't do anything, not one single thing.

Or to match your original question: You haven't been doing anything, have you?
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Re: Smallwhite needs help with English expressions

Postby luke » Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:22 am

smallwhite wrote:I considered rephrasing my Whatsapp message to "You've been doing nothing, right?" but it didn't sound right.

"right?" as tag sounds fine to me there.

It means, "I believe the statement I've just made is correct, but I want you to confirm that and I'm giving you an opportunity to disagree".

In that way, it is tag too, right? :) (In that way it IS a tag, IS it not?)

So me personally, I wouldn't be thinking about "no, not, nothing" as changing the correctness of using "right?" simply as a tag that means, "you agree with my previous statement, don't you?" (or "you agree with my previous statement, right?")

One can also use the word "correct?" as the tag in the same way as "right?". "Correct?" is more formal and really is inviting the listener to "make a correction if you disagree", whereas "right?", is sometimes a filler tag and the speaker will become irritated if you disagree. (depends on the speaker and the context). [ some people become irritated just because you disagree - not talking about those people ].

I'm sure you know this, but if you want to use the less flexible tag, it's related to the verb in the statement that comes before it.

"You HAVE been doing nothing, HAVEN'T you?"

"You go to the store, don't you?"
"You HAVE gone to the store, HAVEN'T you?"

Note that in those two statements, there is no negative in the verb, but the tag still have the "N'T" in it. That's why I don't consider the negativity of the statement as part of the grammar related to the tag.

If you want to think about the grammar in a formal way, perhaps consider these more formal ways to say the previous quotes:

"You DO go to the store, DO you not?"
"You HAVE gone to the store, HAVE you not?"

To use your What's app message as an example in the same more formal way:
"You HAVE been doing nothing, HAVE you not?"
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Re: Smallwhite needs help with English expressions

Postby smallwhite » Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:26 pm

Just some quick info first.

The textbook "question tag" rule is:
positive before comma, negative after comma;
negative before comma, positive after comma.

The issue on hand is:
whether "to do nothing" is positive or negative.

lingua and luke say and smallwhite said "You've been doing nothing, haven't you?"
(so "to do nothing" is positive)
but smallwhite wonders if it should actually be "You've been doing nothing, have you?"
(so "to do nothing" is negative)

Just now, I found both versions, but the 2nd version more:

"you saw nothing, did you?"

"You saw nothing, did you?" Tracy asked...
"No. but I can tell that..."

"And you saw nothing, did you!"
"No," denied Dick, ...

Without that passion you have nothing do you?

Guy: So what do you have to say to that, you have nothing do you?

“You’ve done nothing have you Daddy?”
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