FSI German: Too Old?

[Stefan]

I'm with zenmonkey. I finished both volumes of FSI German many years ago. I didn't know things like "Gnädige Frau" before, and to this day, I've never heard anyone say it. So what? Languages change.

Dubbed version of Spirited Away has "gnädiger Herr" and Sword Art Online has "gnädige Frau" (S02E19).

On topic, I don't see an issue with the vocabulary since you rarely get your knowledge solely from FSI.

[reineke]

I got the expression for free from TV shows. If anyone is looking for something more modern but still substantial, try Je parle l’Allemand [I (can) Speak German] by Editions Atlas, 1988. The audio is 32 hours long.

I'm with zenmonkey. I finished both volumes of FSI German many years ago. I didn't know things like "Gnädige Frau" before, and to this day, I've never heard anyone say it. So what? Languages change.

Dubbed version of Spirited Away has "gnädiger Herr" and Sword Art Online has "gnädige Frau" (S02E19).

On topic, I don't see an issue with the vocabulary since you rarely get your knowledge solely from FSI.

„Ein schlechter Mann, ein Mann ohne Konzession, gnädiger Herr. Es ist der einzige Gondoliere, der keine Konzession besitzt.”

Thomas Mann
Der Tod in Venedig

»Macht nichts, gnädiger Herr, das renkt sich schon wieder ein«, sagte Matwej.»
Tolstoy, Anna Karenina

This reminds me of a fascinating discussion I had about "libre albedrío":
https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =14&t=2219

Miyazaki.jpg

[SvenFromSkyrim]

I think this is the key here. There are serious self-study alternatives. There are actually tons of them. Majority of the stuff published by German publishers like Hueber is for serious learners. And if people see no problem in having to check the ortograph and up to date usage, why would using a monolingual source be more of a problem?

The problem is the very common polarisation FSI vs. toys and crap with more marketing than content.

This is not the reality. A German learner has tons of high quality options in every price range. It may have been a problem a few decades ago, but definitely not any longer.


So, I think the expectations we have from a course like FSI can be fulfilled by other tools nowadays, so there is little reason to spend time with a course that needs lots of research on top of the learning itself. And I think it is so even if you don't use FSI exclusively. It is a good point that we shouldn't rely on one course, not even FSI, but why use it at all in that case, if we have serious alternatives?

Sorry for quoting you from such a long time ago, but could you recommend a German course that focuses on speaking like Pimsleur but goes all the way to B2/C1 level content? Since you say there are tons of great courses and I don't know many and I need to train my speaking German (the rest I can and do get from other sources), I'd like to hear your opinion. Thanks!

[Makaveli1989]

I agree with many others, I just don't believe that 'old' grammar and vocab just become 'ingrained'. Would it be better if the FSI courses were modern? Of course but we have what we have

For me FSI is about drilling grammar over and over, the actual words that they use matter little. As long as you go into the course knowing that you'll be fine.

The real question is why after 60+ years isn't there a better course that blows FSI out of the water and renders it obsolete

[Le Baron]

The real question is why after 60+ years isn't there a better course that blows FSI out of the water and renders it obsolete

Isn't there? If we consider that it's more likely that very few people currently learning modern German use or even know about FSI, and are getting to the place they need to, there probably are plenty courses delivering the goods.

A lot of people talk about FSI; fewer people start them and even fewer people ever finish them.

[emk]

The real question is why after 60+ years isn't there a better course that blows FSI out of the water and renders it obsolete

If I want to be a bit cynical? For most buyers, language courses are a vague "aspirational" purchase. It's like a gym membership. People think, "I should get in shape! I'll buy a gym membership." After the first two weeks, they disappear for good. Similarly, people think, "I should learn French! Let's buy a course / download Duolingo!" Popular language course publishers could save quite a lot of money by leaving everything after Chapter 3 blank. Duolingo is "sticky", at least, but I've seen people keep up a streak for years without reaching A2.

Occasionally, a company makes course for serious learners who have a concrete plan to succeed. Assimil, Pimsleur and Michel Thomas are popular among serious language learners because lots of people who use them actually reach a good level.

Similarly, if you go shopping for a German course, in Germany, and look for something aimed at professional immigrants, you'll probably find some good options. Because those buyers need to succeed.

FSI is an even more interesting case. If the United States government asks, "We need 500 B2/C1 Arabic speakers in 3 years. What budget and timeline will this require?", they want an answer. And they fully expect to get those 500 B2/C1 Arabic speakers according to the promised schedule. FSI courses were designed to actually produce competent speakers at an "industrial" scale.

So this is why we don't see modern technology automatically leading to more effective language courses. There's simply too big a market of people who couldn't tell the difference between a good course and a bad course. So there is little market pressure pushing for quality.

So my recommendation is to take a tried-and-true course, basing your choice on the advice of people who've learned at least one language to a solid B1 under similar circumstances. (Better yet, ask a bunch of people who've made it at least that far, and pick whatever course seems most agreeable. If it doesn't work, try another.) And then you might supplement with a bit of modern tech: Anki, Language Reactor, Migaku, online correction sites, "assisted reading" tools, etc., with a focus on mixing in interesting native materials as early as possible.

We won't get another big drop of fully modernized FSI-like courses unless another giant language school that's required to succeed decides to release their materials and tools. Sometimes we'll see a good single-language course like Destinos or French in Action, or a good course aimed at immigrants. But mostly the market forces aren't demanding that level of quality. At least not in anglophone countries.

[Le Baron]

Can't say anything about FSI courses, in polyglot world people are touchy about them (despite most people not even doing them). There's this laughable assumption that the U.S. state department made some magic course which turns out fluent speakers, when in fact it's just an intensive course where the fact of instructors present (usually native speakers) and massive funding pumped in so the people doing them are able to do many hours in a compressed timeline. They also screen(ed) people for inclusion.

The UK ran similar courses at a special unit JSSL (Joint Services School for Linguists) which turned out alumni for Russian, Polish, Mandarin and Czech. Lots of famous people were students. These aren't published courses, but if they had been I can imagine the polyglot world also treating them like lost scrolls. Rather than recognising that they require you to be actually at somewhere like JSSL with the accelerated syllabus and support.

[tastyonions]

They also screen(ed) people for inclusion.

That plus the fact that they're basically learning a language as a fulltime job have got to be the biggest reasons for success, imo.

[emk]

They also screen(ed) people for inclusion.

That plus the fact that they're basically learning a language as a fulltime job have got to be the biggest reasons for success, imo.

And they honestly push their students really hard, from what I've seen on FSI student blogs.

But my larger point is that any course where the course creators were accountable for producing results should be a good bet. For example, any intensive language school which can point to clear results on challenging, independent tests would be fine.

It's not that there's anything magic about FSI, in particular. Presumably many countries have something similar. And there are expensive, intensive language schools for people who absolutely must learn a language. Middlebury Language Schools fit into this niche. And they threaten to expel you for speaking English, which means that both the student and the school have concrete incentives to succeed.

So that's my recommendation: Look at resources with a track record of success, or at organizations which have strong incentives to succeed.

[Le Baron]

But my larger point is that any course where the course creators were accountable for producing results should be a good bet. For example, any intensive language school which can point to clear results on challenging, independent tests would be fine.

But doesn't this actually point to the need for those instructors and that learning environment? I mean I can get the same written recipe and instructions for making chocolate-orange cheesecake, but it doesn't mean I'll make the same version as a chef.

(As it happens my chocolate-orange cheesecake is quite excellent. Even if I say so myself. )