FSI German: Too Old?

[jeffers]

But my larger point is that any course where the course creators were accountable for producing results should be a good bet. For example, any intensive language school which can point to clear results on challenging, independent tests would be fine.

But doesn't this actually point to the need for those instructors and that learning environment? I mean I can get the same written recipe and instructions for making chocolate-orange cheesecake, but it doesn't mean I'll make the same version as a chef.

(As it happens my chocolate-orange cheesecake is quite excellent. Even if I say so myself. )

The point is none of us have access to those instructors and their learning environment, but we do have access the the pretty comprehensive courses with extensive audio that they use (or I expect used to use, as I would guess they've updated the courses they use in their classrooms). Whatever you say about the dated nature of those courses, the still hold a huge amount of potential for students. The few who have worked through them have mostly said it was a huge benefit. I've completed about a third of the French course and I definitely felt it was worthwhile.

But now that I've read your post, what I really want access to is your chocolate-orange cheesecake!

[Le Baron]

The point is none of us have access to those instructors and their learning environment, but we do have access the the pretty comprehensive courses with extensive audio that they use (or I expect used to use, as I would guess they've updated the courses they use in their classrooms).

Of course. Though what I'm getting at is that just that material alone probably doesn't work in the same way and that a fair amount of what was achieved with it possibly comes from other (also important) factors, which can't really be recreated. So whilst the materials themselves have value, they probably only deliver what any good course can deliver.

Whatever you say about the dated nature of those courses, the still hold a huge amount of potential for students. The few who have worked through them have mostly said it was a huge benefit. I've completed about a third of the French course and I definitely felt it was worthwhile.

I didn't really comment about the age of them and whether this matters. I'm more concerned about their use value outside of the environment they were created for. I know people use the courses in various ways and say they get benefit from them.

But now that I've read your post, what I really want access to is your chocolate-orange cheesecake!

Secret recipe!
Dark chocolate
Cocoa powder
Zest of real oranges (and a lemon)
Mascarpone cheese
Crème fraîche
1-2 eggs
Biscuits and butter for base.
And an electric mixer unless you want tennis elbow.

[Cainntear]

The point is none of us have access to those instructors and their learning environment, but we do have access the the pretty comprehensive courses with extensive audio that they use (or I expect used to use, as I would guess they've updated the courses they use in their classrooms).

Do we?
You may be mistaking homework books for the course itself. I've seen a few FSI and DLI PDFs that are in-class workbooks and instructor's notes that have words and phrases that the teacher is expected to read it and don't come with recordings. The lack of recording makes them less interesting, so they have been pretty late to make it onto the Internet. But even where these things are available, you're still getting far from a complete course. Some of the most crucial stuff is missing.

The Army Method was formed by copying the homework books and ignoring what went on it the classroom, because that wasn't present in the paperwork. Schools threw a lot of money into "language labs", but we're seemingly obvious to how that was generally extended homework rather than a replacement for class time.

FSI and DLI materials are good and useful, but you've still got to add a lot to them.

[jeffers]

The point is none of us have access to those instructors and their learning environment, but we do have access the the pretty comprehensive courses with extensive audio that they use (or I expect used to use, as I would guess they've updated the courses they use in their classrooms).

Do we?
You may be mistaking homework books for the course itself. I've seen a few FSI and DLI PDFs that are in-class workbooks and instructor's notes that have words and phrases that the teacher is expected to read it and don't come with recordings. The lack of recording makes them less interesting, so they have been pretty late to make it onto the Internet. But even where these things are available, you're still getting far from a complete course. Some of the most crucial stuff is missing.

The Army Method was formed by copying the homework books and ignoring what went on it the classroom, because that wasn't present in the paperwork. Schools threw a lot of money into "language labs", but we're seemingly obvious to how that was generally extended homework rather than a replacement for class time.

FSI and DLI materials are good and useful, but you've still got to add a lot to them.

Yes, we do.

[Cavesa]

Sorry for quoting you from such a long time ago, but could you recommend a German course that focuses on speaking like Pimsleur but goes all the way to B2/C1 level content? Since you say there are tons of great courses and I don't know many and I need to train my speaking German (the rest I can and do get from other sources), I'd like to hear your opinion. Thanks!

Hi! No need to apologize!

The answer will be a bit hard, because I don't really like Pimsleur much, I don't think it is such a miracle. Yes, it does have some qualities, especially for the native English speakers, but it is in some ways outdated (some of the courses contain a lot of mysogyny), and I didn't feel like learning much, when I tried it.

That is why I certainly do not associate it like Pimsleur=great course. It is just one of the approaches. And clearly one not really sustainable till the high levels, which is why the companies don't make such courses.

Other courses are often also focused on a lot of speaking, at least if you use them that way. Any course with audio can be used for repeating after and answering, any written exercise can also be done out loud.

Courses like Erkundungen or Sicher are very good, but only if used actively. And not sure whether they fit the bill of what you seem to be looking for.

Speechling is very good for some things, such as pronunciation (you send in as many short recordings, as you wish. you get excellent feedback with no wasting of time within 24 hours. Asynchronous learning at its best), but their own material is not really good and not really advanced (even the stuff that is supposed to be at B2).

[Cainntear]

The point is none of us have access to those instructors and their learning environment, but we do have access the the pretty comprehensive courses with extensive audio that they use (or I expect used to use, as I would guess they've updated the courses they use in their classrooms).

Do we?
....
FSI and DLI materials are good and useful, but you've still got to add a lot to them.

Yes, we do.

Is that you answering the first question or responding to the last sentence?

[SvenFromSkyrim]

Hi! No need to apologize!

The answer will be a bit hard, because I don't really like Pimsleur much, I don't think it is such a miracle. Yes, it does have some qualities, especially for the native English speakers, but it is in some ways outdated (some of the courses contain a lot of mysogyny), and I didn't feel like learning much, when I tried it.

That is why I certainly do not associate it like Pimsleur=great course. It is just one of the approaches. And clearly one not really sustainable till the high levels, which is why the companies don't make such courses.

Other courses are often also focused on a lot of speaking, at least if you use them that way. Any course with audio can be used for repeating after and answering, any written exercise can also be done out loud.

Courses like Erkundungen or Sicher are very good, but only if used actively. And not sure whether they fit the bill of what you seem to be looking for.

Speechling is very good for some things, such as pronunciation (you send in as many short recordings, as you wish. you get excellent feedback with no wasting of time within 24 hours. Asynchronous learning at its best), but their own material is not really good and not really advanced (even the stuff that is supposed to be at B2).

I don't even use Pimsleur, but I know it's one of the courses that focues on speaking and that's something I really need to practice by myself (I don't have any native speakers nearby and have no money to hire tutor on italki or wherever). That's why I gave it as an example. I don't need grammar explanation, reading, listening, writing, all of that I get from other places, but it'd be nice to have some professional material that engages me in some kind of conversation - asking questions, giving me topics that I can elaborate on etc. Coming up with topics by myself is tedious and I feel a structured material would come very handy here. But since there doesn't seem to be such sufficiently advanced course, I'll have to stick by self-talking. Thanks for the answer nonetheless.

[jeffers]

The point is none of us have access to those instructors and their learning environment, but we do have access the the pretty comprehensive courses with extensive audio that they use (or I expect used to use, as I would guess they've updated the courses they use in their classrooms).

Do we?
....
FSI and DLI materials are good and useful, but you've still got to add a lot to them.

Yes, we do.

Is that you answering the first question or responding to the last sentence?

"Yes, we do" was in answer to "Do we?", but I do agree with both sentences. We do have access to pretty comprehensive courses with extensive audio. However, I would not recommend anyone use them without any other source of learning. I personally found FSI a helpful way to review and drill grammar points I learnt first using Assimil. There are many other ways of reviewing and practicing grammar, but the great thing about FSI is it really feels like a workout for your brain and your mouth. Honestly, in the early days of my French studies I would get a sore tongue after 30-40 minutes of FSI because I was making sounds repeatedly that I had never really made before.

[MaggieMae]

(I don't have any native speakers nearby and have no money to hire tutor on italki or wherever).
...
But since there doesn't seem to be such sufficiently advanced course, I'll have to stick by self-talking. Thanks for the answer nonetheless.

With those restrictions, speaking is a lot more difficult to train. I trained my German speaking by being forced to talk to my in-laws, and, without that push, I wouldn't have done half as well as I did. I know Sicher! and Schritte Plus are made more for group lessons, so maybe the self talk could be a bit more guided by doing both halves of the conversation exercises in those books?

Also, just trying to repeat back anything you hear helps a lot with pronunciation, language melody, and getting an overall feel for how the language is supposed to sound in different circumstances. Quoting a movie or an interview, for example. Then you'll also pick up those commonly used phrases, like "Meiner Meinung nach", "Was meinst du/meinen Sie damit?" and so on.

[Le Baron]

Also, just trying to repeat back anything you hear helps a lot with pronunciation, language melody, and getting an overall feel for how the language is supposed to sound in different circumstances.

Exactly. In a situation where you can talk to to people in a TL so much repetitive language is fed to you daily. I've always used the thing of repeating what I've heard. All those little units of speech for common responses, which add up to a lot of structure for ordinary conversation.

s_allard talked about doing something similar in that '12 languages in 12 months' thread. Using the Easy German videos to extract those sorts of useful structures.