FSI German: Too Old?

[Doitsujin]

There is a non-ambiguous way to represent the scharfes S (ß) in capitals. SZ.

This used to be the case before the latest spelling reform update in 2018, when the Council for German Orthography allowed the use of an uppercase ß (ẞ).

Bei Schreibung mit Großbuchstaben schreibt man SS. Daneben ist auch die Verwendung des Großbuchstabens ẞ möglich. Beispiel: Straße – STRASSE – STRAẞE.

(The council previously recommended capitalizing Maße as MASZE and Masse as MASSE. I.e., it's still possible to capitalize ß as SZ, however, it's no longer an official recommendation.)
Needless to say that many typophiles don't like this change at all.

[SGP]

There is a non-ambiguous way to represent the scharfes S (ß) in capitals. SZ.

This used to be the case before the latest spelling reform update in 2018, when the Council for German Orthography allowed the use of an uppercase ß (ẞ).

Bei Schreibung mit Großbuchstaben schreibt man SS. Daneben ist auch die Verwendung des Großbuchstabens ẞ möglich. Beispiel: Straße – STRASSE – STRAẞE.

(The council previously recommended capitalizing Maße as MASZE and Masse as MASSE. I.e., it's still possible to capitalize ß as SZ, however, it's no longer an official recommendation.)
Needless to say that many typophiles don't like this change at all.

Some wouldn't even feel bound to adhering to what any council says. They would consider capitalizing ß as SZ to still be possible even if any council would clearly state that it wouldn't be a part of the German language any more.

But I never heard of that 2018 Capital ß Event up to now, so you did tell me something new. And that whole thing shows that some aspects of the language can, sort of, change any time unexpectedly. So when someone is taking the FSI course that was made in the 1960ies (?), then there are many, many more things to keep in mind. I once read that anyone learned some things from it, then tried to apply them in front of his/her German teacher. That person mentioned that the response was a bit of laughing, and being told that this way of speaking is similar to Shakespearean English. Now that really isn't an apples to apples comparison. But if anyone does take this course anyway, I'd definitely recommend not to use it as one's only source. Otherwise there could be some unnecessary misunderstandings, or some surprises of any kind (positive or also negative).

[Speakeasy]

… But if anyone does take this course anyway, I'd definitely recommend not to use it as one's only source…

I suspect that most students of German, whether they opt for classroom instruction or prefer independent learning, are not even aware of the existence of the 1960’s era FSI German Basic course. Those who do make the decision to work through these materials tend to be very determined adults who possess the sophistication necessary to separating what is truly useful and still current in these materials from that which may be regarded as being now archaic. None of these people would rely on these materials, or on any other materials, as their sole source of instruction. Language learning is like serving oneself at a Smorgasbord, you can’t take it all in and there’s no accounting for tastes. I suggest that we cease flogging the “FSI is bad” horse, I have seen so no new arguments here that I haven’t already read on the HTLAL. I suggest that detractors of the FSI Basic courses learn to live with the horrifying notion that some people will make choices with which others disagree and that the former are willing to live with the consequences of their decisions.

[SGP]

I suspect that most students of German, whether they opt for classroom instruction or prefer independent learning, are not even aware of the existence of the 1960’s era FSI German Basic course.

This is your assumption, and I ACK that. That even may be the case rather often, especially outside of forums like these. But here, many are aware of the FSI courses.

Those who do make the decision to work through these materials tend to be very determined adults who possess the sophistication necessary to separating what is truly useful and still current in these materials from that which may be regarded as being now archaic.
None of these people would rely on these materials, or on any other materials, as their sole source of instruction.

Again, it may be like this. But the opposite can apply as well, to some at least.

Language learning is like serving oneself at a Smorgasbord, you can’t take it all in and there’s no accounting for tastes. I suggest that we cease flogging the “FSI is bad” horse, I have seen so no new arguments here that I haven’t already read on the HTLAL.

As for me, neither calling it "all good" nor "all bad". And not everyone had been on HTLAL before coming here.

I suggest that detractors of the FSI Basic courses learn to live with the horrifying notion that some people will make choices with which others disagree and that the former are willing to live with the consequences of their decisions.

If I'd adapt the idea of not commenting at all on the FSI courses, I'd also adapt the idea of not commenting on any other course that contains many outdated usage examples.

If I would (really) start with e.g. Mandarin and was about to take any course that has some bigger pitfalls (in addition to also containing a lot of useful material), I'd really prefer to know about them in advance. Wouldn't want to insult several Chinese persons without even noticing. So that's where hints about dated usage, like tiia's about "Fräulein" and so on, really come in handy.

[Speakeasy]

SGP, you are constantly raising issues about the FSI courses that have not only been discussed in numerous other threads, but have been thoroughly addressed above. I understand that you do not like the FSI German Basic course, you have made that point abundantly clear. Your constant denigration of these materials, in the presence of reasoned arguments supporting their continued use, are tantamount to looking for a dispute where none exists.

If you cannot live with my decision to use – and to thoroughly enjoy using – these materials as an intelligent adult would, then I suggest you find some other means of dealing with your problem. I will not respond to any other of your posts on this, or on any other similar, matter.

EDITED:
Typos

[zenmonkey]

I can't talk specifically about the German course, but as one who has used two DLI courses for language-learning in Portuguese aqnd Haitian Creole, I find them to be highly useful despite their age. The DLI Portuguese Basic Course dates from the 1960's and even has a unit with a conversation about passenger ships and a lot of "out of date" vocabulary. I agree with speakeasy. Underlying this debate is the concept of how a learner uses a course. To me, when I use these old resources, it's about overall usefulness. I go into it fully aware of the age of the material. Because my learning philosophy incorporates other resources and modern, native material early on, I become aware of what is common and typical in current language. If a learner solely, or very heavily, depends on courses, then that's where outdated language and patterns become more of an issue. because they are relying on courses for almost everything.

Personally, I wish I could get hold of modern courses with even half of the thoroughness of the DLI courses I have used.

All of this.

Before moving to Germany I used FSI (and MT & ASSIMIL and some awful thing). Yes, all the criticism about the age of the course and the shifts in language are true and some of it is "out of date". But even so, the format and presentation are still highly useful.

I've yet to meet any L2 speaker that has only used a single resource to learn a language. Nor have I met a German L2 speaker that only speaks with German from the 50's.

And using this course I learned a lot of vocab that wasn't particularly immediately useful (embassy, matches, cigarettes) but was quite amusing to my kids as I walked about asking "Where is the embassy? Dear lady, do you have matches?"

However, I'm also of the option that any advanced speaker of language that wishes to be able to manage various spoken register or literature or other cultural artefacts should have some grounding in the history of the language.

If you are not instantly aware the second you communicate with the locals that there are some shifts in the use of language by regionalisms, register and situation -- well, I can only ask, under what rock have you been learning any language?

For most languages, and particularly for the FIGS, I'm going to assume that the learner is planning to interact with modern native material at sometime (preferably soooooon ) and the minor issues raised in the German FSI course are going to be drowned out rather quickly.

Finally, as an L2 speaker of a language, the instant you open your mouth, it generally is apparent that you are a foreigner and any out-of-date expressions are more likely to be taken as charming.

This particular focus on the minor issues in this material vs the real value of the layout/method is almost like taking exception to listening to modern German TV (like "Dogs of Berlin") because if I only used that I'd spend my time using terrible racist and/or misogynistic slang. In general, the educated learner knows to consider the voice of the material being used.

[jeff_lindqvist]

I'm with zenmonkey. I finished both volumes of FSI German many years ago. I didn't know things like "Gnädige Frau" before, and to this day, I've never heard anyone say it. So what? Languages change.

- Gnädige Frau, ich möchte mich nochmal für den netten Abend bedanken.

[David1917]

However, I'm also of the option that any advanced speaker of language that wishes to be able to manage various spoken register or literature or other cultural artefacts should have some grounding in the history of the language.

If you are not instantly aware the second you communicate with the locals that there are some shifts in the use of language by regionalisms, register and situation -- well, I can only ask, under what rock have you been learning any language?

Well said. People act like learning “товарищ” or “同志” (both are “comrade”) are going to ruin your chances of ever succeeding in learning Russian or Chinese. Moreover, that if someone’s true one and only exposure to either language is a course that uses this, and they have somehow gotten no idea that the Communist ideologies in both countries have disappeared/changed, they will approach passport control and, in their first utterance in their L2 either horribly disrespect the agent or embarrass themselves so much that they are forced to simply tuck their tails and get right back on the plane and leave. Preposterous.

Your first conversations with natives are going to be trainwrecks in many respects. A funny outdated term will be the least of one’s concern. And yes, unless you have found some sort of bubble in the population that has no knowledge of the history of their country, you’ll need to passively be aware of these terms anyway.

*Yes, I know the current usage of 同志, and no, I don’t think anyone would do anything other than chuckle or side-eye a 老外 who attempts to use it.

[SGP]

SGP, you are constantly raising issues about the FSI courses that have not only been discussed in numerous other threads, but have been thoroughly addressed above.

I couldn't be expected to read every other thread about FSI, nor I would expect anyone else to do so. And if some of these points really have been addressed in this very thread, then I wasn't aware of that.

I understand that you do not like the FSI German Basic course, you have made that point abundantly clear.

Already told ya (here or in another thread) that I don't call it all good or all bad.

If you cannot live with my decision to use – and to thoroughly enjoy using – these materials as an intelligent adult would, then I suggest you find some other means of dealing with your problem. I will not respond to any other of your posts on this, or on any other similar, matter.

Dealing with "my problem"? I couldn't even care less about both of these very words of you and that " " emoticon.

[Cavesa]

I personally think that majority of the FSI German values can be gained elsewhere now. Finding a lot of grammar drills as a German learner is much more easier, than finding lots of Italian grammar drills. And those have been one of the core parts of the course. FSI is still an option for a courageous learner and still could inspire publishers to cover some gaps on the market, but I don't think there is any reason to be extremely passionate over the issue.

I haven't finished it. But the first few lessons with a lot of drills on the pronunciation have given me so much! Much more than most courses or teachers will give you at that moment. I would definitely recommend that. And then just continue with whatever book you had planned.

To remove the ortograph problem, one could use the drills as an audio based course. From what I remember, the drills with lots of substitution and repetition were actually easier for me to follow than Pimsleur.

Sure, there is some outdated vocabulary. But any learner using more resources will fix that. And I don't think there is a huge risk of lots of total newbie learners thinking "I just need to find one course and it will teach me everything" and at the same time choosing FSI instead of the more colourful alternatives. The more probable users are more likely to be the definitely not-newbie kind of learners, therefore making an informed choice. They'll deal with it.

Some outdated terms are much less of an FSI problem than you'd think, I'd say. You know, if someone's been hiding under a rock for the last thirty years and hasn't noticed in any media, class, or anywhere else that Germany is no longer divided by the Wall and "comrade" is no longer an appropriate way to address someone, I don't think one language course makes that much of a difference in their general education anyways The same is true about the cigarettes and matches no longer being such a universal small talk subject. Most people have noticed it's 2019. Either the learner will learn the appropriate use of any such outdated stuff soon enough, or they just have to deal with the social consequences. After all, we don't meet many readers of Dumas running around Paris seriously trying to duel people with swords and gossip about cardinal Richelieu either.