French In Action, as a learning device?

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PeterMollenburg
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Re: French In Action, as a learning device?

Postby PeterMollenburg » Wed May 03, 2017 11:36 am

blaurebell wrote:
smallwhite wrote:aka "leaving the comfort zone", which a lot of us refuse to do (and don't even realise it).


I totally agree with you smallwhite, getting to the point where we are willing to get out of our comfort zone is sometimes very difficult! The other day I listened to a little video of Luca where he speaks about the B2 gap. He said that at B2 we are at a point where what we did before doesn't really work anymore and we have to do things differently to make further progress - read things we wouldn't normally read, watch things that we wouldn't normally watch, speak about uncomfortable subjects and generally get out of our comfort zone. I thought that this was really sound advice. Basically my study plan for Spanish now contains mostly stuff outside of my comfort zone, because I've been stuck at B2+, i.e. B2 plateau, way too long now.

As for time estimates: I used to read a lot about efficiency and productivity and I became fascinated by this notion that you can get to 80% in 20% of the time and the remaining 20% take the longest. Basically perfectionism tends to be a huge time sink. My supervisor at university used to say to me "Have the courage to leave gaps" and it's my mantra now. I still fail at it badly, but it's not as bad as it used to be. One can spend unlimited amounts of time perfecting grammar skills before actually starting to use the language in any real way. I tend to start super early with native content precisely because my tendency would be to go on a course mission and then spend ages on low frequency grammar concepts that are better tackled at B2-C1 after plenty of exposure. Basically I jump in at the deep end with native content after 80% grammar to outwit my own perfectionist tendencies. It's really uncomfortable most of the time, but it works for me.

As for Benny and his Fluent in 3 months, it's simply another application of the 80-20 rule I mentioned above, although in this case a misguided one. Instead of jumping into native content after a quick 80% grammar overview he jumps into speaking without giving the language learning machine in his head any input at all. As a result he speaks without the vague "that sounds wrong" mistake detection mechanism in place and starts feeding his language learning machine so many mistakes that the result can only involve fossilised mistakes. Of course he can get to B2 in 3 months in this way, at least with easy languages, but afterwards he will remain at B2 forever because he broke the language learning machine in the process by feeding it mostly incorrect input at a vulnerable stage. Correcting the damage of such a learning strategy might be very time-consuming and difficult later on - some even think that it's impossible to correct. If getting his meaning across is all he wants, that's fine. For me it's not enough though. Even when I try to outwit my own perfectionism, it still remains there, judging me all the time, so C2 output is the goal for me always.

As for numbers - up to B2 they match class room hours quite well because of the 80-20 rule. Once you try for C1 you are reaching those last 20% that take the longest though. Decreasing returns means that you can easily spend 1000h on input - especially if you avoid reading - and still not hit a solid C1 comprehension. The problem here is the efficiency of acquiring low frequency vocabulary and if you don't have some sort of exceptional ability to pick up vocabulary easily from spoken language it's super inefficient to try to get there without reading a lot - 20,000 pages seems to be some sort of C1 consensus. Even at average native reading speed of 200wpm - about a minute per page - this would take more than 300h. My first 5000 pages intensive reading in French took me 330h and since then I've been averaging 1.5-2 minutes a page extensive reading. I can probably calculate up to 800h just for the first 20,000 pages of French. With Spanish I still have some substantial gaps in some regional slang / accents after almost 700h of TV, so I now aim to reach 1500h of TV to make my C1 level listening comprehension a bit more solid. French isn't quite as extreme with regional variations so maybe 1000h suffice? Add to this grammar instruction / courses, speaking and writing and we're already at 2000-2500h+ total just for a solid C1.

Judging from my experiences with English C2 near native university level comprehension actually takes thousands of hours of input alone. 50,000-100,000 pages, several thousand hours of TV, radio, lectures. And aiming for more than a medium sized novel in output (50,000 words) is also a good bet for near native writing skills! Of course speaking all day every day in all sorts of registers would also be necessary. It would be hard to estimate how long it really took to reach C2 in my case. Even with a rough estimate I'm well beyond 5000h though!

And with all these numbers I don't actually talk about passing proficiency exams, getting away with less for exams is probably possible. I mean actual honest self-assessment here.

So, A2 after 8 months and 800h doesn't actually have to be a sign of slow learning, you're probably just very thorough Carmody! You will probably have benefits from this style of learning once you approach the B2 plateau and you might not even experience a plateau at all. That's what my experience with English was like because I over-learned grammar in school. Other people leave gaps and spend just as much time trying to close the gaps / correct their learning mistakes later on! And as always there is only a fine line that separates efficiency from sloppiness.


Awesome post! Thanks for sharing your insights and experience blaurebell.
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Re: French In Action, as a learning device?

Postby Carmody » Wed May 03, 2017 5:09 pm

blaurebell

Thanks so much for your comprehensive review and advice; it is greatly appreciated.
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Re: French In Action, as a learning device?

Postby blaurebell » Wed May 03, 2017 5:11 pm

I'm glad you found it helpful! :)
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Re: French In Action, as a learning device?

Postby Seneca » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:06 pm

Carmody, a coworker is learning French via French in Action, and his talking about how he is simultaneously not wanting to drown in trying to do everything while still learning sufficient grammar made me think of this thread and vaguely recalling you mentioning perhaps you'd have liked more grammar in some form in this course. I am unsure if you ever found something you felt complimented FIA well.

For whatever it is worth, my coworker mentioned he was looking at Living French: A Grammar-Based Course, and it does look like it could be a great complement either to FIA, or to another course that perhaps isn't the best at teaching grammar (Assimil?). There are a few reviews of it on the old website, and they all seem to indicate it is a bit dated, but would give a thorough grounding in grammar. It also seems to come with at least some audio on a cd as well!

He also said he thought French for Reading could be a good supplement to FIA since it basically is teaching grammar/vocab through reading only and that he thought that'd fit in well with all the aural practice of FIA. All that audio in FIA does make me think the lack of audio here likely doesn't matter so much since you'll have as much as you want from the main course!

I just thought I'd mention both to you and bump the thread in case anyone else is chugging along. Maybe someone else here as experience with either of these and can chime in on if they'd work well either on their own or in conjunction with FIA/Assimil.
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Re: French In Action, as a learning device?

Postby aravinda » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:09 pm

Seneca wrote:...Maybe someone else here as experience with either of these and can chime in on if they'd work well either on their own or in conjunction with FIA/Assimil.
I haven't done FiA, though I own the 2nd edition. Regarding Living French and French for Reading, I discovered them too late to benefit from them as a beginner. I've used Living French for revising French and I've just glanced through French for Reading. Awaiting input from Carmody and others, here's what I can say on these books.
Like the other books in the Living (Language): A Grammar-based Approach series, Living French was first published in the 1950s. When they were reprinted in the 1990s with added audio, they were thoroughly revised. For example, the 7th (and the most recent) Living French edition you linked to was revised by Jean-Claude Arragon who has few other French books to his credit. So they are not dated in that sense. However, these books start with sentences like "The book is on the table; The dog is under the table" instead of scenes titled "At the Airport; In the Hotel". In this sense, they may look dated. I'm fine with that - actually that's why I like these books in the first place. As expected, the audio is not extensive but the book can be used as a stand-alone introductory course and would make an excellent supplement to a course like Assimil. Another candidate is French Made Simple. No one has been able to locate the audio and again it might appear a bit dated to some learners. There's a new version which I don't know much about except that it doesn't have audio and doesn't use the IPA, unlike its predecessor.
After finishing any decent French course, an English speaker would be able to read French without any other assistance except for a dictionary and a grammar. However, in my view, French for Reading can accelerate the process because it's specifically written for that purpose.
In short, both these books will suit your friend's purpose. Whether anyone who's doing FiA would have enough time for other books is a different matter. ;)
Last edited by aravinda on Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:41 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: French In Action, as a learning device?

Postby Carmody » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:27 pm

aravinda and Seneca

Many thanks for the update; most appreciated. I definitely need to look into them.

Courses like FIA can't begin to be all things to all people, obviously. And everyone reacts differently to the same course material. Like medications, we are different people with different needs.

With that said, I have about 5 different grammar books but my favorites at this time are:

Ultimate French, Review and Practice by Stillman and Gordon

French Grammar: A Complete Ref. Guide by Calvez

I haven't found any silver bullet yet; I just keep on....keeping on....
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Re: French In Action, as a learning device?

Postby sirgregory » Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:16 pm

This seems to be the main French in Action thread on the forum.

By chance I recently acquired a free copy of the textbook which prompted me to take another look at this program. My previous experience with it is that I'd seen a couple of the episodes on PBS several years ago. I just rewatched an episode to remind myself how it's structured.

Videos: The videos are totally in French, and while they do use natural method techniques to demonstrate some of the concepts, much of what is needed to understand the dialogues is NOT explained within the video and certainly not in detail. It should go without saying, but a beginner trying to learn only by watching the videos will be completely lost in short order.

If you have learned a fair bit of French by other means (and especially if you speak other Romance languages), the videos can be used profitably on their own as a source of graded audio-visual material. This is the way I intend to use it when I get around to studying French again, and I suspect this is how the program is most commonly used nowadays.

Textbook: This is not a normal textbook. Leafing through it, I'd say the most useful thing here (which just to be clear is pretty useful) is that it has the dialogues written out. It teaches surprisingly little. If you were to watch the videos and look at the transcripts, it'd be a bit like a long-form Assimil without the translation or grammar notes (again, okay for ~intermediate, but not for beginners). It seems the actual learning is supposed to happen with the workbooks AND the accompanying audio (from the preface: "The majority of activities in the workbooks require the use of the audio recordings.")

I have not seen the workbooks yet, but based on what is described here they sound like a real slog and that is where the natural method breaks down for me. While I can't say I'm a true believer in the method in its pure form, one thing it absolutely gets right is that it gives you TONS of actual French and it does it in a delightful way. With the videos alone, you are getting ~25 hours of straight French which puts the typical language course to shame.
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Re: French In Action, as a learning device?

Postby Lawyer&Mom » Sun Aug 22, 2021 11:17 pm

sirgregory wrote:
I have not seen the workbooks yet, but based on what is described here they sound like a real slog and that is where the natural method breaks down for me. While I can't say I'm a true believer in the method in its pure form, one thing it absolutely gets right is that it gives you TONS of actual French and it does it in a delightful way. With the videos alone, you are getting ~25 hours of straight French which puts the typical language course to shame.


You really can’t judge this particular program without the audio and the workbook. The video and the textbook provide graded French input, the workbook has far more conventional grammar exercises that incorporate a lot of audio. The workbook is truly the core in terms of explicitly teaching French. I own all the components, including the video, when I was working through the workbook I actually skipped watching the videos, and you could almost skip the textbook too. Now I dropped the program, because I wasn’t interested in conventional grammar exercises and explicit language instruction and I had better sources of French input (hello Internet!) but French in Action would have been amazing in the pre-Internet era, and is still pretty darn good. I was comfortable with rough sledding, so I jumped into reading and watching native materials, but French in Action video and textbook would give you nicely graded input if that’s what you want. Or do the whole darn course if you want do all the work. You would certainly learn a lot of French.
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Re: French In Action, as a learning device?

Postby sirgregory » Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:29 am

Lawyer&Mom wrote:I was comfortable with rough sledding, so I jumped into reading and watching native materials, but French in Action video and textbook would give you nicely graded input if that’s what you want. Or do the whole darn course if you want do all the work. You would certainly learn a lot of French.


Even today, it’s still some of the best graded video material around. Producing such content is expensive and it seems most of the quality programs have relied on grants and institutional support. FIA and Nicos Weg (German) are the best ones I’ve seen. The Extra series is a little goofy but I like that one too.
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Re: French In Action, as a learning device?

Postby munyag » Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:14 am

Xenops wrote:
Carmody wrote:Is anyone out there using the French In Action course?

I am currently one half way through it and am curious if anyone out there is using it and how far you have gotten.

Holiday Greetings!


I'll let you know when I finish (which, realistically, would be a long time after you, considering your pace). ;)


Did you manage to finish FIA?What do you think you were able to do after the course that you couldn't before the course?If you were to do it differently, How would you go about it?
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