Extensive LRing - variations on the tried and true?

[reineke]

Maybe the Polish dude would understand. I can only act as a casual observer but overall there's a lot of good stuff here.

Is this like "He who cannot be named"? Feels like I'm in a Harry Potter novel.

So basically the "for dummies version" is listen in L2, read in L1? Rinse, lather, repeat? Shadow for pronunciation?

The comparison is appropriate about as much as a gutted market fish bearing resemblance to Nemo. Maybe you don't remember but he/she used many names. The Polish dude (or gal) works for me.

[BOLIO]

Maybe the Polish dude would understand. I can only act as a casual observer but overall there's a lot of good stuff here.

Is this like "He who cannot be named"? Feels like I'm in a Harry Potter novel.

So basically the "for dummies version" is listen in L2, read in L1? Rinse, lather, repeat? Shadow for pronunciation?

In the beginning it is listen to L2 while reading L1. Then it is L2 / L2. Then shadow.

[Montmorency]

Yes. I listen and I read. It works. Has anyone completed a book as described in the L/R instructions?

Yes, more or less, but I also do variations. More by feeling and mood than following any great plan.
However, I don't regard the original L/R instructions as "stone tablets", to be followed religiously. More as an inspirational work.

I plan to be doing a lot more of it over the coming months, so if I come to any conclusions worth recording, I'll try to report back.

[Montmorency]

Maybe the Polish dude would understand. I can only act as a casual observer but overall there's a lot of good stuff here.

Is this like "He who cannot be named"? Feels like I'm in a Harry Potter novel.

So basically the "for dummies version" is listen in L2, read in L1? Rinse, lather, repeat? Shadow for pronunciation?

In the beginning it is listen to L2 while reading L1. Then it is L2 / L2. Then shadow.

Well, isn't there a kind of optional first step? "The Polish Dude" (to use Reineke's terminology) used a book that was already well-known to him (or her...I thought it was a "dudette", but I may be wrong). If the book is already well-known, then start (as you say) by listening to L2 while reading L1.

But if it's not already well-known, then read it first in L1(without listening to anything). It also depends on your level in the L2 language already. If it's already quite good, then you might be able to skip the "optional first step", and just dive into listening to L2 while reading L1, without having read the book in L1 already.

My problem with the "Polish Dude" was that sometimes he/she was very dogmatic, and at other times a bit more relaxed in his/her advice.
At the end of the day, we all can make the choice how literally to take his or her instructions.

....OK, the forum s/w is telling me that Reineke is contradicting what I quoted Bolio as saying. I'm going to post this anyway, as I think this is a case of how literally you want to take "The Polish Dude". I don't think taking it literally is always appropriate, if only because the advice varied sometimes.

[reineke]

As requested, this is for dummies. As such, nothing is optional. L1 = "English" for most people. L2 = target language. I will ignore the rest of the world. I have removed the author's attempts at humor ("LSD" 1 & 2)

STAGE 0
"On the importance of background knowledge/what you need to know in advance"
Incredibly useful: knowing something about phonetics, grammar, and your native/strongest language. Knowing that phonetic contrasts that your L1 doesn't have are in your L2 is useful; being able to distinguish them is better yet. Some people seem to be able to do this instantly; for the rest of us, listening to minimal pairs and reading about how the sounds are produced and seeing lip and tongue images can help. Knowing that sounds are different in your L1 and L2 is essential;

"Having an outline of your L2 grammar can save you time, especially if it's markedly different from your L1." Understanding your L1 is important; it's a useful tool for learning about phonetics and grammar."

"What I do before I start L-R
1. I gather materials: audiobooks, etexts, pronunciation courses, computer dictionaries with audio, mouse-over pop-up dictionaries, reference grammars with audio.
2. I read about L2 culture: literature, history, geography, and movies. I read translated books and watch subtitled movies, I listen to songs.
3. I study pronunciation very carefully – recognition stage only, I don't produce anything until I reach natural listening.
4. Grammar overview – I read two or three grammar handbooks, study grammar tables, sentence patterns. I don't do any exercises, I want to have a general idea about the language."
Prepare your material. "How difficult the text for “listening-reading” should be depends entirely on you, you might start with something relatively simple. Because of the IDIOLECT of the author the first 10-20 pages might be a nightmare for some, but then it’s getting easier and easier, the longer the text the easier it becomes, but it’s still the same IDIOLECT, variation after variation on the same theme, more and more celestial music."

"The order ought to be EXACTLY as follows":

Stage 1 (reading the text in L1 beforehand; ideally, knowing it very well)
Read the book in L1 ("English") "because you only remember well what you understand and what you feel is "yours" psychologically

Stage 2 (reading L2 while listening to L2, until you're sure you know where word boundaries are as you listen)". You listen to the text in the target language (Spanish) and look at the written text in the same language.

"If you’ve ever tried to listen to native speakers of any language, you must have noticed that at first you do not know which groups of sounds form words and that they (speakers, not words) speak as if they were machine guns.
The aim of STEP 2 is to cure these two small drawbacks, and at the same time to get some exposure to meaning, sounds, rhythm, intonation in L2."

"Whether you should go from the beginning to the end depends on two things:
1. how much you understand
2. if you already can recognize the boundaries between words and the speed is no longer frightening.
If you understand quite a lot (being a free person, you yourself must decide how much is enough for you), you’d better go to the end.
If you don’t understand anything new after the first ten to twenty pages but you can follow the written text easily and can spot the boundaries in the flow of speech, you’d better stop and go to STEP 3. If the speed is still frightening you go on until it stops being so."

"You might as well remember I say you can skip Step 1 and 2." They are not absolutely necessary, though they might be useful.

"Stage 1 and 2 of LR make the first few hours of stage 3 a lot easier."

Stage 3 "Paradise proper, though it seems Hell at first. You’re reading L1 and listening to L2."

Read in L1 ("English") and listen to the audio in your target language (Spanish).

"The aim of STEP 3 is obvious: MEANINGFUL EXPOSURE, INPUT, LISTENING COMPREHENSION.
And ultimately: NATURAL LISTENING" – understanding completely new texts without any crutches, you only rely on your ears and what you already know. It basically means you are able to understand NEW recorded texts (usually slightly simpler than the ones you have “listened-read”) without using any written texts, neither the original nor a translation and without having read them in L1 before.

"If you’re not capable of doing it without stopping the audio, "you might decide to read a page (or a paragraph) and listen to the passage once or twice and go on". (Sounds good to me)

"When you’ve come to the stage of ‘natural listening’ to fairly difficult novels, L-R is no longer necessary. “Listening-reading” is for LEARNING a language. Natural listening means using and enjoying the language."

"Listening to a short text time and again does not mean new exposure, it is still the same mechanical repetition. It might have its merits as well: you’re exposed to sounds, rhythm and intonation, but that’s about it, nothing more."

"NOTHING SHOULD EVER BE DONE AT THE EXPENSE OF EXPOSURE until you get to natural listening to difficult texts."

4. "now you can concentrate on SPEAKING: you repeat after the recording (and recite), you do it as many times as necessary to become fluent. Of course, first you have to know how to pronounce the sounds of the language you’re learning. How to teach yourself the correct PRONUNCIATION is a different matter, here I will only mention the importance of it. Do not try to speak until you've reached the stage of natural listening."

"Repeat after the speaker what you only understand (the meaning) and can hear properly (phonemes, rhythm, etc)

Listen-repeat – if it's correct: listen-repeat, listen-repeat
if it's not correct, do not repeat any more, only listen

First small chunks (even syllables) here and there while natural listening to something you enjoy, then the chunks will get longer and longer.

Shadow/echo (= repeat after the speaker/s) longer sentences and texts."
"What really counts is listening and repeating after the recording."

"Blind shadowing (without understanding) is a waste of time and effort."

[jeff_lindqvist]

Short version:
1 Read L1
2 Listen to L2, Read L2
3 Listen to L2, Read L1
4 Repeat L2 aloud
5 Translate from L1 to L2

#2 and #3 several times if you want, and #4 and #5 as much as you want.

(...)this is for dummies. As such, nothing is optional.

Whatever the stone tablets say, (I think) steps 1, 2 and 3 are most important. And if it's a book you already know, you're done with step 1.

"You might as well remember I say you can skip Step 1 and 2." They are not absolutely necessary, though they might be useful.

Yes, some steps are optional.

[reineke]

0 Learn your own language properly. Acquire some knowledge of the phonetics, grammar, and script of L2 ahead of time. Knowledge of L1 grammar is important. Choose parallel texts carefully.

1 Ideally, as a lover of literature, you should already have several favorite books to choose from.
2 Listen to L2, Read L2
...
3 Listen to L2, Read L1
...with some caveats including:
- You may pause and process the two streams separately.
- If you don't have parallel texts, do the following:
1. read a page (or a paragraph) in L1
2. listen and look at the text in L2, trying to attach some meaning to it
3. listen and look at the text in L1, trying to attach some meaning to what you're hearing.

4 speak
Do not try to speak until you've reached the stage of natural listening. Blind shadowing (without understanding) is a waste of time and effort.

L-R is not mechanical. If you do L-R not intensively enough, it will be useless for you. You must love what you’re doing and be "in the zone" for hours.

[BOLIO]

Thanks for clearing this up for me. I have never done true L-R. I now do a lot of L2/L2 as part of my study process for listening comprehension. However, I have never started a language as Ms. Awe rider herself suggested. One day when I start Russian, I will.

Thanks again.

[reineke]

Thanks for clearing this up for me. I have never done true L-R. I now do a lot of L2/L2 as part of my study process for listening comprehension. However, I have never started a language as Ms. Awe rider herself suggested. One day when I start Russian, I will.

Thanks again.

Reading-while-listening (RWL) is an old, effective approach especially in the beginning phases of language-learning. It involves exactly what you're doing with Spanish.

Bilingual readers have been around for a while too. I would use both strategies for Russian.

[sfuqua]

I tried to do a fairly pure L-R on _One Hundred Years of Solitude_. It was fairly soon after I finished Assimil.
I broke the rules almost immediately, I didn't take the time to read the book in English first; I just did a Listen-L2 / Read-L1 pass through the book. I tried to do the Listen-L2/Read L2 pass, and I couldn't understand enough to have it make sense, so I did a second ListenL2/ReadL1 pass. I started a third pass and got too bored and quit the whole process after about 50 hours. My reading comprehension and listening comprehension did a big jump, and I could read that one book aloud pretty smoothly and with pretty complete comprehension. I wish I had done another hundred hours of it right then with other books; the effects faded away pretty fast since I wasn't doing extensive reading then.
I experimented with using it for one of my Aubrey Maturin books today for what turned out to be 100 minutes. These books have a lot of naval terminology, so they are somewhat difficult. I'm not sure that LR is useful for me now at my "sort of C1 reading" level. It helps with the terminology, but I can read and understand without the English text, so I'm not sure it's worth the trouble. I learned this terminology in English just from reading these books; I should probably just let the process unfold in Spanish too.