[Kanji] Understanding but not Reading

[Rotasu]

tangleweeds' Kanji topic got me thinking...
What does it actually mean to learn a kanji? When I can remember it's readings? When I can write it without looking at it? When I know it's meaning based on the other kanji around it?

Take this simple sentence.

• もう宿題をしましたか。

Now I can understand this sentence just fine but how I read this sentence is like this:

• もう[homework]をしましたか。

Have I learned 宿 and 題 because I know that together, they mean homework? Or I havent because I dont know the readings for these two kanjis?

Another example:

• 木村さんはまだ昼ご飯を食べている。
• [Name]さんはまだ[knows this word is lunchごはん]をたべている。

Is this kind of mind set okay? Over time, is it possible to naturally learn the readings for these words, maybe through listening?

Extra Questions:
Do you study meaning and reading at the same time? Such as in Anki, are you going Kanji -> Reading, English or maybe two kinds of cards, Kanji -> English and Kanji -> Reading.
Has anyone had thoughts on learning the meaning of words before learning their readings? Ex: How the JLPT courses are set up on Memrise

[vonPeterhof]

What does it actually mean to learn a kanji? When I can remember it's readings? When I can write it without looking at it? When I know it's meaning based on the other kanji around it?

If one wanted to nitpick one could find problems with all three of these definitions. Many kanji have numerous readings that are hardly ever used nowadays and are only learned by people intently studying older literature or those preparing for Kanken Level 1, but it wouldn't be fair to say that functionally literate people who don't know those obscure readings "haven't learned" those characters. Even limiting the definition to jōyō-appoved readings has issues: 眼 is used with the reading め in fiction all the time, but the closest the jōyō list comes to acknowledging this reading is in the appendix, and only as part of the compound 眼鏡（めがね）. Knowing the meaning from the other kanji around it isn't a very reliable predictor of recognition of the kanji in isolation, or in a completely different context. The ability to write the kanji from memory is probably the most unambiguous metric, but arguably also the least useful in this day and age when computers and other electronic devices can generate those characters without you having to recall them.

I, like lots of other self-learners, eventually chose to sidestep the whole issue by focusing on learning words instead of characters. As you learn how to read and write words you learn to use specific kanji in specific contexts, and as your vocabulary grows your ability to make educated guesses in unfamiliar contexts will also improve (although it's always a good idea to confirm the pronunciation in a dictionary before you add a word discovered "in the wild" into your active vocabulary).

Another example:

• 木村さんはまだ昼ご飯を食べている。
• [Name]さんはまだ[knows this word is lunchごはん]をたべている。

Is this kind of mind set okay? Over time, is it possible to naturally learn the readings for these words, maybe through listening?

I believe this is essentially an "extensive vs intensive reading" question. Although at the very least Japanese media allow the learner to sidestep this part of the issue for some time due to the existence of furigana in media targeted at natives. I've went through phases of reading predominately texts with furigana and watching anime with Japanese subs in order to strengthen the associations between the characters and their sound. Now that I'm reading novels without furigana I try to look up every word whose pronunciation I'm not entirely sure about. Thankfully by now these tend not to come up more frequently than one word per page, so it's not a huge hassle, but if it is a major obstacle to enjoyment of the text then it's worth thinking about whether not getting bored with the text or understanding every single word is more important to you (and I don't really have an opinion about which is more important for studying in the long run).

Do you study meaning and reading at the same time? Such as in Anki, are you going Kanji -> Reading, English or maybe two kinds of cards, Kanji -> English and Kanji -> Reading.

For kanji I used the Heisig-recommended direction of English keyword -> Kanji, while for my sentences decks I used the default format of Core 2k/6k with two pair cards, one going Sentence with kanji -> Sentence in kana + translation, and the other Sentence in kana -> Sentence in kanji + translation. At some point I started to gradually change the cards in my kanji decks from English keywords to the reading, putting in all jōyō-approved readings in the same card in order to avoid overlap with other cards, but soon afterwards I gave up reviewing kanji entirely and focused squarely on the sentences.

[Rotasu]

Wow. vonPeterhof, ありがとうございます！Anyone else have their thoguhts? Summons :

[CittaKyle]

I think it becomes clearer if we think of Kanji as a really, really, REALLY complicated alphabet.

Using the english alphabet as example, when would we say we know it?
1) When we can sing the "alphabet song", bearing in mind this is an arbitrary ordering of the letters paired with a melody for easier memorization? (keyword recognition w/ "stories")
2) When we can write each letter in all its variations (block print, cursive, etc)? (stroke order, recollection)
3) When we know all the various pronunciations and pronunciation combinations, such as "o" in bottom, boat, bought, boil, boy, boar, bound? (readings)

Because the # of Kanji is so large, theories and methods for learning that are so varied but the end goal is ALWAYS the same: literacy in Japanese. And you're not literate until you can read words and write words. Kanji are just components of words, so to say you "know" a kanji is like saying you "know" the letter A.

[PolyglotMaya]

I don't have answers to all of your questions, but if it's all right with you, I will talk about how I am learning kanji. Hopefully you can take something useful from what I'm about to share.

First of all, I will say right off the bat that kanji have way too much information for you to learn all of it in one go. That's just my opinion, but it's an opinion informed by experience. I mean, each time you learn a kanji, you have to learn:

-- How it's written (visually)
-- What it means in English
-- Japanese on readings
-- Japanese kun readings

Compare that with a native speaker (child) of Japanese learning kanji, and what they have to learn:

-- How it's written (visually)
-- Japanese kun readings (which automatically convey meaning to them, because they already speak Japanese)
-- Japanese on readings (which form words that they already know)

The Japanese speaker has the entire spoken language already cut out for them; the English or other foreign learner is not so lucky.

That's why I strongly recommend, and believe in, first learning the writing and meaning of kanji, and only then the readings. That seems to be where you're at with some basic/common kanji. I know it might seem frustrating, but at least this way, you could the work into manageable chunks.

Extra Questions:
Do you study meaning and reading at the same time? Such as in Anki, are you going Kanji -> Reading, English or maybe two kinds of cards, Kanji -> English and Kanji -> Reading.
Has anyone had thoughts on learning the meaning of words before learning their readings? Ex: How the JLPT courses are set up on Memrise

I have two seperate decks: one called 漢字 (where I learn the writing and meaning of kanji) and one called 日本語＋(where I add sentences, and where I learn readings for kanji). I will share a few examples from both decks.

From 漢字:

TO SAY

[cloze deletion]

4 x 1... mouth

radical: words, talking

(Answer to cloze deletion: 言)

~~~

TEN

[cloze deletion]

radical: needle [borrowed from Heisig]

(Answer to cloze deletion: 十)

~~~

PLOT, SCHEME, PLAN

[cloze deletion]

say/words... needle

Mnemonic: I'm in the hospital, sick and only half conscious, when I notice a group of nurses huddled in the corner, TALKING and **plotting** about how they will poison the NEEDLE of a vaccine I need. Uh oh!

(Answer to close deletion: 計)

~~~

These aren't perhaps the best examples of my mnemonics; I have many that are sexual or just plain gross because they're easier to remember. But anywho. Notice how I use cloze deletions/ do not have the kanji on the front of the card I think this is very important, but when I've tried putting the kanji on the front before, it produced a passive recognition of each kanji, but not necessarily an active knowledge. It's important to be able to actively draw each kanji from memory without seeing it.

Now for some examples from my 日本語＋ deck:

Front

余{{c1::計}}な心配かけたくないから

Back

よ・けいな　しん・ぱい　かけたくない　から

余計な：excess

"I don't want to make [person X] worry too much"*

~~~

Front

余計な心配{{c1::かけ}}たくないから

Back

よ・けいな　しん・ぱい　かけたくない　から

余計な：excess

"I don't want to make [person X] worry too much"*

~~~

*I don't actually include English translations like this most of the time, but I added them here to make sure you understood what was going on. Also, {{c1::__}} is a cloze deletion.

Anyway, notice how I use the 日本語＋ deck to drill myself on both on/kun readings and things like grammar, vocabulary (in hiragana), etc. I basically use that deck to bridge the gap between the pure written language and the spoken language; you could say it's how I'm learning to read.

I know you don't like Anki, so I'm not sure how useful this was. If you want, perhaps you could adapt this method to paper/physical flashcards? But that sounds like a lot of work.

[PolyglotMaya]

Just want to quickly add one thing: I've used the same method before for learning on/kun readings, and in my experience, it has been very effective. When I've seen familiar kanji put together in new words, I've been able to correctly guess the pronunciation of the word because I had learned the readings via this method.

For whatever that's worth.

[Nandemonai]

tangleweeds' Kanji topic got me thinking...
What does it actually mean to learn a kanji? When I can remember it's readings? When I can write it without looking at it? When I know it's meaning based on the other kanji around it?

For me it's simple: if I can recognize the kanji and know a couple words with it, then I count it as learned. I can probably write about 1000 kanji by hand from doing 3/4th of Remembering the Kanji but this isn't a focus for me anymore. I don't really do a lot of kanji specific studying anymore.

Extra Questions:
Do you study meaning and reading at the same time? Such as in Anki, are you going Kanji -> Reading, English or maybe two kinds of cards, Kanji -> English and Kanji -> Reading.
Has anyone had thoughts on learning the meaning of words before learning their readings? Ex: How the JLPT courses are set up on Memrise

In Anki I did Japanese & English keyword > Kanji. I couldn't work from just English, there are too many overlapping or similar kanji in meaning that I never knew which one was being asked. Adding the Japanese keywords helped a lot for me in that regard. Now I just do sentence cards and reading (light)novels. I do advocate RTK (which teaches the meaning before readings) as a supplement to studying early on, it helped me a lot as it basically kickstarted my learning.

[Rotasu]

Now for some examples from my 日本語＋ deck:

Front

余{{c1::計}}な心配かけたくないから

Back

よ・けいな　しん・ぱい　かけたくない　から

余計な：excess

"I don't want to make [person X] worry too much"*

~~~

Front

余計な心配{{c1::かけ}}たくないから

Back

よ・けいな　しん・ぱい　かけたくない　から

余計な：excess

"I don't want to make [person X] worry too much"*

~~~

*I don't actually include English translations like this most of the time, but I added them here to make sure you understood what was going on. Also, {{c1::__}} is a cloze deletion.

So for this deck, do you press Easy if you remember the reading for the kanji? But what about learning words such has your second example? After seeing this sentence serval times, you already formed the meaning of the words so you did cloze deletion to remember the reading?

[Rotasu]

Now I just do sentence cards and reading (light)novels. I do advocate RTK (which teaches the meaning before readings) as a supplement to studying early on, it helped me a lot as it basically kickstarted my learning.

Do have example of your sentence deck? Do also learn the meaning of words before their readings?

[PolyglotMaya]

So for this deck, do you press Easy if you remember the reading for the kanji? But what about learning words such has your second example? After seeing this sentence serval times, you already formed the meaning of the words so you did cloze deletion to remember the reading?

That's correct - in this deck, I mostly focus on what is in the cloze deletion. When I see a sentence, I hit Easy if:

1) I can read everything that's showing (the whole sentence), and

2) I can write from memory whatever is/was in the cloze deletion.



"But what about learning words such as your second example?"

A minority of the sentences in my deck don't have cloze deletions, and are just sentences that I read out loud. I sometimes learn new vocabulary this way.

Also, sometimes I will have a sentence with new (for me) vocab, and I'll do one (or more) of the following things:

1) I will cloze delete something other than the new word in the sentence, such as a particle. I will still read the whole sentence whenever I see it in my reviews, but having to produce/recall at least one thing in the sentence (like a particle) keeps things more active.

2) I will put a loose English translation at the top, to provide context.

For example, I recently heard the following sentence in an anime:

俺は自分をの野望だけは貫くぞ

It means "I will only pursue my own ambitions". The word 野望 (ambition) was new to me, and 貫く was new in this particular context (it literally means "to pierce", which is what I knew about it before; in this particular sentence, it means "to follow" or "pursue").

I made 4 cards (cloze deletions) out of this sentence:

俺は自分の{{c1::野}}望だけは貫くぞ

俺は自分の野{{c1::望}}だけは貫くぞ

俺は自分の野望だけ{{c1::は}}貫くぞ

俺は自分の野望だけは{{c1::貫}}くぞ


Each card had the following on the back:

おれは　じぶんの　や・ぼう　だけは　つらぬくぞ

野望：ambition
貫く：
1) to pierce
2) to stick to (principles), to carry out

The first 2 cards were about the readings of 野 and 望; the 3rd was about studying/reviewing particle use (if I had had to write this sentence on my own, I would have guessed that を should go where the second は is); and the 4th card was about drilling home the fact that 貫く can go with 野望.

In that sense, the 4th card is similar to the card where I cloze deleted <かけ> in 余計な心配<かけ>たくない. It's not so much about learning a new word as it is learning which word goes with which other words in sentences and expressions.