Modal Verbs and Changes in Meaning (Italian)

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Haiku D'etat
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Modal Verbs and Changes in Meaning (Italian)

Postby Haiku D'etat » Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:09 pm

I found a useful chart in Kinder & Saviani's 'Using Italian' reference book. It outlined different uses of modal verbs (dovere, potere, and volere) in different tenses and their impact on meaning. However, I noticed that a few possible combinations are missing from their list. Are the ones missing below:

1) permissible in Italian, and if so, 2) what is the precise shade of meaning that these constructions convey?

deve dormire she must/has to sleep
dovrà dormire she will have to sleep
dovrebbe dormire she should/ought to sleep; she should be asleep
doveva dormire she had to sleep; she used to have to sleep; she should have slept (R1-2)

ha dovuto dormire she had to sleep (= was obliged to sleep)
avrà dovuto dormire ?
avrebbe dovuto dormire she should have slept
aveva dovuto dormire she had had to sleep; she had been obliged to sleep

deve aver dormito she must have slept
dovrà aver dormito ?
dovrebbe aver dormito ?
doveva aver dormito she had to have slept

può farlo she can/may do it
potrà farlo she will be able to do it
potrebbe farlo she could/might be able to do it
poteva farlo she could do it; she used to be able to do it; she could have done it (R1-R2)

ha potuto farlo she managed to do it
avrà potuto farlo ?
avrebbe potuto farlo she could have done it/she would have been able to do it
aveva potuto farlo she had been able to do it

può averlo fatto she may have done it
potrà averlo fatto ?
potrebbe averlo fatto she could have done it (= it could be the case that she did it)
poteva averlo fatto she could have done it (= it was possible that she did it)

vuole lavorare she wants to work
vorrà lavorare she will want to work
vorrebbe lavorare she would like to work
voleva lavorare she wanted to work; she used to want to work

ha voluto lavorare; non ha voluto lavorare she insisted on working; she refused to work
avrà voluto lavorare ?
avrebbe voluto lavorare she would have liked to work
aveva voluto lavorare ?

vuole aver lavorato ?
vorrà aver lavorato ?
vorrebbe aver lavorato she would like to have worked; she wishes she had worked
voleva aver lavorato ?

I have an inkling as to what they might mean, but I wouldn't want to rush in to assume anything without checking this out first. Any help would be appreciated.
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Re: Modal Verbs and Changes in Meaning (Italian)

Postby Serpent » Sat Jan 23, 2016 7:53 am

Yeah don't worry too much about the English translation. (btw from my pov English does the opposite - most modal verbs lack some forms, especially the future, so you say "I can" but "I will be able to").
Haiku D'etat wrote:doveva dormire she had to sleep; she used to have to sleep; she should have slept (R1-2)
Is this from your textbook? I don't think it can mean "she should have slept" :shock:

dovrà aver dormito ?
...
avrà potuto farlo ?
potrà averlo fatto ?
dovrà is either the future or more typically a guess about the present. so smth like "she must've slept" and "she must've been able to do it" imo. I think the difference between the last two is pretty subtle.
ha potuto farlo she managed to do it
this depends on your English usage but for learning purposes I'd translate it as "she's managed" or "she's been able" to do it.
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Re: Modal Verbs and Changes in Meaning (Italian)

Postby dampingwire » Sat Jan 23, 2016 6:09 pm

1e4e6 wrote:ho dovuto andare in treno: I had to go by train (I had to, plus I did go), whilst .


I just wanted to point out that modal verbs generally (perhaps always) take the auxiliary of the verb that they accompany.

So: sono dovuto andare "I was obliged to go".
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Re: Modal Verbs and Changes in Meaning (Italian)

Postby Spoonary » Sat Jan 23, 2016 7:27 pm

Wow, this reminds me of when I asked my Italian language exchange partner how to say "...the book you were going to give me." (which translates almost literally into Spanish as "el libro que me ibas a dar.") and she said something like "quel libro che avresti dovuto darmi" (please correct me if I'm wrong) and I was all :shock: mind=blown. I really want to understand this aspect of Italian grammar but I find it a teensy bit scary, and besides, I don't even know what it's called so I can't search for it...
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Re: Modal Verbs and Changes in Meaning (Italian)

Postby Serpent » Sat Jan 23, 2016 7:53 pm

IDK, I'd think this should come naturally if you're familiar with the tenses? And I found radio arlecchino really helpful for learning them.
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Re: Modal Verbs and Changes in Meaning (Italian)

Postby dampingwire » Sat Jan 23, 2016 8:20 pm

Spoonary wrote:Wow, this reminds me of when I asked my Italian language exchange partner how to say "...the book you were going to give me." (which translates almost literally into Spanish as "el libro que me ibas a dar.") and she said something like "quel libro che avresti dovuto darmi" (please correct me if I'm wrong) and I was all :shock: mind=blown. I really want to understand this aspect of Italian grammar but I find it a teensy bit scary, and besides, I don't even know what it's called so I can't search for it...


I've always seen it called Modal Verbs in English when referring to Italian grammar. In Italian it would be Verbi Servili (as here) or (less often) Verbi Modali (more detail here but even this starts out by saying "traditionally called Verbi Servili).

As for quel libro che avresti dovuto darmi, with no context I'd've said that that means "the book that you should have given me" although given the context you state it would fit too. A simpler way to say (almost) the same thing might be quel libro che hai detto che mi avresti dato.
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Re: Modal Verbs and Changes in Meaning (Italian)

Postby Spoonary » Sat Jan 23, 2016 8:46 pm

dampingwire wrote:As for quel libro che avresti dovuto darmi, with no context I'd've said that that means "the book that you should have given me" although given the context you state it would fit too. A simpler way to say (almost) the same thing might be quel libro che hai detto che mi avresti dato.

Thank you for the links, dampingwire. I'll take a look at them and see if I can figure it all out once and for all.

I think the key thing that I haven't quite gotten my head around is the use of the conditional 'avresti' in this case. Of course, that can also be translated as 'you would have', which in my brain has nothing to do with 'you were going to'. I'll get there in the end but my brain just needs a bit of re-wiring. :)

P.S. Sorry for hijacking the thread.
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Re: Modal Verbs and Changes in Meaning (Italian)

Postby Haiku D'etat » Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:29 pm

1e4e6 wrote:I am not sure if I understand your question correctly, but are you saying that you are asking what happens if the modal verbs change in "meaning" depending on the tense? This phenonemom happens in the other Romance languages, and as I read in a Spanish grammar book, the "meaning" only changes in its English translation, not in the actual language itself.

....

Note that the English translations are all over the place, but the Italian version is just a different tense. Italians do not think of different meaning like how the English translations change so drastically, a different tense is just a different tense, yes with its own meaning, but not like they think, "That has a different tense, so I have to go and figure out the completely different meaning."


I'm feeling more confused now! I might not be using the word 'meaning' in the right way that a linguist might, and I think that I meant mood or aspect when I said tense, but it seems to me that there is a change in meaning between the different combinations in those examples. Not all of the Italian constructions above are perfectly interchangable without altering, however slightly, the meaning conveyed. If you say deve dormire mistakenly, when you mean to say dovrà dormire, you're saying something rather different about the situation than you intended. 'She must sleep' has a different grammatical mood/tense/aspect/whatever and a different meaning to 'she will have to sleep'; if they're used interchangably, confusion would arise.
Again, "Faceva molto caldo a Napoli ieri" has a different tense, and aspect, to "Ha fatto molto caldo a Napoli ieri". The former implies that the speaker experienced the weather from inside Napoli, and the latter indicates that the speaker observed the weather from outside the city - however, both sentances would be translated to the English "It was hot in Napoli yesterday".

I understand that, for example, dovere/volere/sapere change meaning in the present and the imperfect; the main problem I have is that I'm just unsure about the differences in meaning depending on which word is put into the past participle - i.e., what difference does choosing:

ha + potuto + inf.
vs.
puo + aver + pp.
vs.
puo + pp. + inf.

... make to the overall meaning of the clause? Are they perfectly interchangable without altering meaning? Is there a rule governing which construction to select?

Here are my guesses as to the meaning of the missing combinations. Are these grammatical in Italian, and if so, do they reflect the differences in meaning that I've inferred?

avrà dovuto dormire ; she will have to have slept
avrà potuto farlo ; she will have been able to do it
avrà voluto lavorare ; she will have wanted to work
aveva voluto lavorare; she had wanted to work
dovrà aver dormito ; she will have to have slept
dovrebbe aver dormito; she should have slept
potrà averlo fatto ; she will be able to have done it
vuole aver lavorato ; she wants to have worked
vorrà aver lavorato ; she will want to have worked
voleva aver lavorato ; she wanted to have worked

Also...
Serpent wrote:
Haiku D'etat wrote:doveva dormire she had to sleep; she used to have to sleep; she should have slept (R1-2)
Is this from your textbook? I don't think it can mean "she should have slept" :shock:


Yep, that's what the textbook says - however it indicates that that particular meaning is used in more casual registers.
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Re: Modal Verbs and Changes in Meaning (Italian)

Postby dampingwire » Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:34 am

Haiku D'etat wrote:avrà dovuto dormire ; she will have to have slept


She surely must have slept.

Haiku D'etat wrote:avrà potuto farlo ; she will have been able to do it


She probably managed to do it.

Haiku D'etat wrote:avrà voluto lavorare ; she will have wanted to work


She must have wanted to work.

Haiku D'etat wrote:aveva voluto lavorare; she had wanted to work


Depends on context I guess, but "she wanted to work" probably fits better in English.

Haiku D'etat wrote:dovrà aver dormito ; she will have to have slept


She must have slept.

Haiku D'etat wrote:dovrebbe aver dormito; she should have slept


She ought to have slept (but perhaps didn't)

Haiku D'etat wrote:potrà averlo fatto ; she will be able to have done it


Something in English that means "she's probably been able to do it".

Haiku D'etat wrote:vuole aver lavorato ; she wants to have worked
voleva aver lavorato ; she wanted to have worked
vorrà aver lavorato ; she will want to have worked


Sounds OK as it is.


Haiku D'etat wrote:doveva dormire she had to sleep; she used to have to sleep; she should have slept (R1-2)

Is this from your textbook? I don't think it can mean "she should have slept" :shock:


Yep, that's what the textbook says - however it indicates that that particular meaning is used in more casual registers.[/quote]
[/quote]

doveva dormire can mean "she should have slept"

(Apologies to Serpent as I've messed up the quoting, but the Anteprima screen is whining that the quotes are nested too deep and I'm too short of coffee to fix it properly :-))
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Re: Modal Verbs and Changes in Meaning (Italian)

Postby Haiku D'etat » Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:33 am

Wow, fantastic! That's exactly what I was looking for :)
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