Tips for fluent speaking without engaging with native speakers?

[SvenFromSkyrim]

Ok, so I'm learning German by myself and got to a level where I can comfortably read and listen to material around B2 level. I'm also exercising my writing in this language and noticed that I can build some nice, fairly complex and grammatically correct sentences already. There is one problem: so far I didn't speak in German with anybody and I'd like to speak fluent German. Some say it's impossible to attain this skill alone: one has to engage daily with speakers in a target language, preferably moving to the contry, where this language is spoken. On the other hand, not everybody thinks this way. From my initial research, some argue that it's possible to fluently speak in a foreign language by oneself by using techniques such as shadowing, self-talk (either aloud or inner coversations/thought process) and extensive reading and listening. My experience so far with English suggests it's indeed possible to gain fluency without extensive communication (if I ever talk with somebody in English, it's online, in a text-form and very sporadic, like in this case). Yet I can and often do think in English and can hold conversations on various topics in this language - all in all, I'm satisfied with my English and consider myself fluent. I'd love to say the same about my German but so far I lack the ability to express myself in this language freely. Personally, I'd say it's a matter of time, but nonetheless I think merely replicating my strategy of learning English (basically watching movies and reading books in this language) might not necessarily be optimal.

I'd like to get to know your opinion on this topic and experiences on this subject.

[rdearman]

I think you need to talk, simply because you need to make the "muscle memory" in your mouth and throat and tongue such that when you speak it all happens in the correct way. So in theory, you never need to engage with a native speaker., self-talk and shadowing should be sufficient.

However.... Is your pronunciation correct? Is your accent so thick a native can't actually understand anything you say? The only way to test this is to actually speak to a native. Someone willing to critic and criticize your language skills and give you pointers. I've met quite a few people who think that they are speaking perfect English, but I couldn't understand what they were saying because the accent was so thick I couldn't figure it out.

[Iversen]

I don't expect my pronunciation to be perfect, but when I arrived in Italy the first time in 1972 (on my first interrail tour) I had only learned the pronunciation from a book - and I could still ask for directions and granite di menta, and after a couple of days I had extended discussions with fellow travellers in the trains. However today there is a thing called the internet, where you can listen to speech and revise your assumptions, so today it would not be sensible to try out a language before you had heard it.

For me the key to speaking in a language is thinking in it, starting out with short fragments with lots of holes and errors - and then you can weawe them together and weed out the most glaring errors before you engage in something as stressful as a conversation with a native speaker (or even worse: another mediocre learner). But at least for me the spoken language always comes AFTER I have learnt to write in it, and that comes AFTER I have learnt to read and (maybe) understand the spoken version of it.

As for errors: I'm not terribly afraid of fossilized errors. The best time to tidy up your language is when you already can use it.

[Severine]

I enjoy talking to native speakers when learning a language, and I always do so as soon as realistically possible, usually when I am around a high A2 or low B1 level. Obviously, the conversations start out fairly simple, but the human connection is rewarding to me, and my desire to express myself more fully in these conversations is often a key driver of my learning.

For me, discussions with a native speaker are not only helpful for learning vocabulary, structures, and pronunciation, they also serve as a motivational tool because I form friendships or at least mutually beneficial working relationships with people who speak my target language. I do this either by engaging a 'community tutor' (essentially a paid conversation partner) via iTalki or a similar service, or by finding a language exchange partner (a native speaker of my target language who is seeking to improve their English). It can be hard to find the right person, but when you click with someone it can be truly rewarding. I have made good friends this way. Platforms like Skype, Zoom, WhatsApp, etc. make it all very accessible.

I don't think any of this is strictly necessary, however. I know many people who have had similar experiences to your described history with English. The questions, then, are: is it more efficient to include speaking practice? Is it more enjoyable? I think the answers to those questions depend heavily on the learner's personality, goals, and preferences, as well as the quality of conversation practice they'd be able to access.

For those who prefer solo study, techniques like shadowing, self-talk, etc. are also effective, though they have their limits. Bulk audio input is helpful (podcasts, YouTube, etc.), and sites like forvo.com are available to resolve any pronunciation questions you might have. I also find that reading and writing are massively helpful in improving my conversational skills, albiet less directly.

[SvenFromSkyrim]

I agree with you, Iversen. I have similar experiences - first it's understanding written text, then audio, then building sentences in written form, then thinking in it and speaking at the end. Which is a pity, I'd prefer if all of that would be simultaneous

Severine, yes, I thought (although somewhat simplistically) - writing and talking are basically the same thing (excluding pronunciation of course, but German is thankfully pretty straightforwad in this aspect, much easier than English or French) - you think about something and then you express yourself in a text or audio form. That's why nowadays I focus on writing primarily in my studies assuming fluent writing = flent speaking. I noticed though, that it's not necessarily the same thing - I wrote hundreds of various sentences (mostly in formal German) in the last month yet simple introduction in German (and making it sound somewhat sophisticated and not super basic) is actually somewhat of a challenge, at least as of now lol.

I forgot another technique that some say might indirectly positively influence your speaking skills and lead you to fluency - transcribing German audio, preferably natural sentences, not those made artificially for learning purposes (like listening practices from textbooks). So thisi is another thing that I have incorporated in my daily practice.

[jeffers]

As for errors: I'm not terribly afraid of fossilized errors. The best time to tidy up your language is when you already can use it.

I agree with this completely... in theory. I am the type of person who is afraid to speak because I'm afraid to make mistakes. I know that I would be better off just trying to say something as well as I can, make mistakes and try to do better next time.

I don't think any of this is strictly necessary, however. I know many people who have had similar experiences to your described history with English. The questions, then, are: is it more efficient to include speaking practice? Is it more enjoyable? I think the answers to those questions depend heavily on the learner's personality, goals, and preferences, as well as the quality of conversation practice they'd be able to access.

It is really important to acknowledge that everyone has different interests and talents when it comes to language learning. I get bored of people who constantly repeat that the main or even only reason to learn languages is to speak with people. However, it is also helpful to be aware that learning on a path only suited to our perceived abilities could also hold us back from being able to do things we want to do (example, my experience mentioned above).

Severine, yes, I thought (although somewhat simplistically) - writing and talking are basically the same thing (excluding pronunciation of course, but German is thankfully pretty straightforwad in this aspect, much easier than English or French) - you think about something and then you express yourself in a text or audio form. That's why nowadays I focus on writing primarily in my studies assuming fluent writing = flent speaking. I noticed though, that it's not necessarily the same thing - I wrote hundreds of various sentences (mostly in formal German) in the last month yet simple introduction in German (and making it sound somewhat sophisticated and not super basic) is actually somewhat of a challenge, at least as of now lol.

I do believe that writing is a helpful step towards speaking, but I also acknowledge that in practice there can be quite a gap between one and the other. One way to bridge this gap is to practice speaking what you wrote out loud, and even better to record or film yourself speaking so you can listen back (or share with a trusted friend) and then try to do better. Personally, I think this will only work if you listen to a lot of the language already, so you have a good sense of whether what you're hearing is being spoken correctly. The importance of recording yourself at this point is that what you hear of yourself while you're speaking can be very different from what you'll hear when you listen back to it.

[Deinonysus]

I would say that if you go through Pimsleur first and then FSI, you will have a very strong command of the spoken language without having to speak to another living soul.

Just keep in mind, your listening comprehension is more important than your speaking ability. If you can perfectly understand what your interlocutor is saying but you make some grammar mistakes or can't think of a certain word, you'll be fine. But if you can rattle off paragraphs of fluent German but have no idea what the other person is saying back to you, you're lost.

[bombobuffoon]

I think you need to talk, simply because you need to make the "muscle memory" in your mouth and throat and tongue such that when you speak it all happens in the correct way. So in theory, you never need to engage with a native speaker., self-talk and shadowing should be sufficient.

However.... Is your pronunciation correct? Is your accent so thick a native can't actually understand anything you say? The only way to test this is to actually speak to a native. Someone willing to critic and criticize your language skills and give you pointers. I've met quite a few people who think that they are speaking perfect English, but I couldn't understand what they were saying because the accent was so thick I couldn't figure it out.

You mean Scots?

[Severine]

I don't think any of this is strictly necessary, however. I know many people who have had similar experiences to your described history with English. The questions, then, are: is it more efficient to include speaking practice? Is it more enjoyable? I think the answers to those questions depend heavily on the learner's personality, goals, and preferences, as well as the quality of conversation practice they'd be able to access.

It is really important to acknowledge that everyone has different interests and talents when it comes to language learning. I get bored of people who constantly repeat that the main or even only reason to learn languages is to speak with people. However, it is also helpful to be aware that learning on a path only suited to our perceived abilities could also hold us back from being able to do things we want to do (example, my experience mentioned above).

Heartily agree. As someone who did a degree in Latin and Ancient Greek language and literature, I lost count of the number of times people commented, in tones ranging from genuine curiosity to unapologetic mockery, on the fact that I was learning languages that weren't useful for speaking to people. Many people cannot fathom any other use for a language, or the idea that a language need not have a use, strictly defined, to be worth learning. I enjoy speaking to people (well, some people!), but it's not the only reason I learn languages and I think it would be my loss if I limited myself thus.

However, I do think it takes some amount of self knowledge to tell the difference between limiting one's focus in a language out of true preference versus out of avoidance of discomfort. When I began learning Russian, for example, my only goal was to be able to read at a high level and I had zero interest in developing conversational skills. I think that was perfectly legitimate at the time because my focus was literature. However, when I found myself with Russian-speaking in-laws a bit later in life, my strong preference was still to stick to reading despite the obvious benefit of developing my conversational skills. The reason, of course, was that I nervous about the idea of speaking in front of my in-laws, who believed that being supportive of my efforts required them to correct even the slightest pronunciation or grammar error, to the point that conversation was rather painful.

[Le Baron]

I'm finding it hard to agree with a view that one can 'speak fluently' without engaging with other speakers. It's possible to build up a decent battery of learned scripts, and 'islands' based upon predicting certain patterns (these also based upon general conversation etiquette). They will help a lot if you've drilled them so much that you can pick from them at will, but engaging in a conversation is at least 50% unpredictability.

I agree with Deinonysus's second paragraph above concerning the ability to understand others. This relieves a massive amount of the stress and difficulty. You no longer need to bother about struggling to interpret others, but upon your responses. Yet there are a couple of caveats: 1) that you need some practical in-the-field experience of being spoken to by someone expecting acknowledgement and/or a response. This is very, very different than unravelling speech not actually directed towards you, where the heat is off you, and is a psychological factor more than a linguistic one. 2) that, as rdearman said:

you need to make the "muscle memory" in your mouth and throat and tongue such that when you speak it all happens in the correct way.

However I don't believe self-talk and shadowing is at all sufficient for this. Speaking engagement also includes perceptible and sometimes imperceptible micro-correction as you go along, which it's hard to do when you're just speaking alone. I have no hard academic evidence for this, but I've slowly noticed myself (and others) making micro-corrections to pronunciation and things like tone and vocabulary choices based upon interactions. Effectively a form of copying, or shadowing if you like, much more tailored to practical use. I'm not against shadowing, though I would choose judiciously what to shadow. Shadowing long monologues and things that don't reflect conversation is a complete waste of time.