Hours until native listening?

Ask specific questions about your target languages. Beginner questions welcome!
Gaoling97
Yellow Belt
Posts: 84
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:48 am
Location: 中國
Languages: English (N), German (Advanced), Chinese (Intermediate)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18675
x 322

Hours until native listening?

Postby Gaoling97 » Thu May 25, 2023 5:33 am

Just a more general question, I guess. Does anybody have any estimates how many hours you would need to reach a native-like level of listening comprehension? Even if your estimates are only based off of personal anecdotes.

This means not just C2 level, and it doesn't just mean you understand almost everything you hear (though of course that is part of it), but that you're at the point where listening is completely effortless, where you have to expend virtually no energy to understand something, even with extremely colloquial speech, slurred/heavily reduced speech, low audio quality etc. Where you are able to easily follow group conversations with many people constantly interrupting each other.

At the point, psychologically, where listening in the language just feels the same as listening to your native language.

Of course, maybe the question itself is just impossible to answer. I very much doubt there have been any scientific studies to investigate this (though I would love to be proven wrong!), as there aren't many practical purposes for most people; C2 level listening is probably more than enough for the vast majority of jobs or university programs (and probably even less than C2, in many cases), and the question as I have phrased it might not even be scientifically testable anyway. And even immigrants who eventually desire native-level listening comprehension will probably be satisfied in most cases by "merely" reaching an advanced level and letting it gradually improve from that over the years.

Even here, most people probably have not reached this level unless they immigrated to another country. With perhaps the one major exception being some who have learned English as a second language, but considering the way most people these days learn English (with classes in school and constant exposure to English over many years), those people probably don't have much to say about this.

But since this is a language learning forum, there very well may be some here who have done this and were crazy enough to obsessively log their time spent, or at least have some thoughts about it. It would also be helpful even if your estimates are not "from zero" but e.g. from B1 or B2 or something. Like I said, personal anecdotes are fine, and I don't expect the numbers to be very precise (even something like "3000 hours", as long as there is something behind it, would be very interesting to hear).

And yes, I know it depends on your native language, what languages you already speak blah blah blah.

For the record, I will just say I don't think the answer to this is "however long it takes to reach C2", or even (god forbid) "C2 is better than a native". I'm not trying to open that can of worms, but I think you could easily pass C2 while not being even remotely close to what I am talking about. This is true both in terms of the actual exams (where that is pretty obviously the case) and for the more vague self-assessment grid, where C2 listening is described as:

I have no difficulty in understanding any kind of spoken language, whether live or broadcast, even when delivered at fast native speed, provided I have some time to get familiar with the accent.
1 x

User avatar
språker
Yellow Belt
Posts: 88
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:46 am
Location: Vilnius, Lithuania
Languages: Swedish (N), English (C1), German (B2), French (A2), Lithuanian (B1 -- studying)
x 345

Re: Hours until native listening?

Postby språker » Thu May 25, 2023 8:52 am

If you already almost understand everything when listening, working on the other skills in the language might be equally rewarding for you listening, as just to listen even more.
2 x

Irena
Green Belt
Posts: 392
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2022 11:42 am
Languages: Serbian (N), English (C2), French (C1), Russian (C1), Czech (C1), dabbled in a couple of others, dreaming of many others
x 861

Re: Hours until native listening?

Postby Irena » Thu May 25, 2023 9:08 am

Gaoling97 wrote:This means not just C2 level, and it doesn't just mean you understand almost everything you hear (though of course that is part of it), but that you're at the point where listening is completely effortless, where you have to expend virtually no energy to understand something, even with extremely colloquial speech, slurred/heavily reduced speech, low audio quality etc. Where you are able to easily follow group conversations with many people constantly interrupting each other.

Hmm... I feel no functional differences in my ability to understand my native language (Serbian) and English, but comprehension is not "effortless" for either under the circumstances that you describe. Poor quality audio (I don't mean not-top-notch; I mean really poor quality), highly non-standard speech... And then there are the dialects! Your profile says you're a native English speaker. Okay, so does that mean you can effortlessly understand all varieties of English (both high and low prestige)?

Just out of curiosity, do you native English speakers understand this effortlessly?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6ZUneyU7Vo

'Coz I sure don't. I understand a bit here, a bit there, and maybe it would all become clear if I listened to it ten times. :lol: Now, I wish I had a comparable (comparably bad) recording in Serbian so I could directly compare my ability to understand. Alas!

Edit: Aha! Here's a very old Serbian recording:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74Q7RsDEP3E

It's not as old as the McKinley speech, but pretty old (WWI), and I suppose roughly comparable in terms of quality. Yeah, I guess I understand the Serbian version a bit better after all. Interesting! "Effortlessly," though? Hell no. I understand more than I do from the McKinley speech, though.

Oh, and this (Russian, late 19th century) is utterly incomprehensible to me without the subtitles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtKxEahcZqk

Now, if I read the subtitles, I can detect what corresponds to what. ;) The fact that there are subtitles tells me that native Russian speakers would really struggle to understand as well.
Last edited by Irena on Thu May 25, 2023 9:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
5 x

User avatar
luke
Brown Belt
Posts: 1243
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:09 pm
Languages: English (N). Spanish (intermediate), Esperanto (B1), French (intermediate but rusting)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=16948
x 3631

Re: Hours until native listening?

Postby luke » Thu May 25, 2023 9:10 am

If one is thinking someone who understands both regular as well as pop culture references, as well as the myriad of accents one may come across, including those of particular social groups, then I would think about as much listening (and other activities, as språker suggested) as a person does between the ages of 5 and 25.
4 x
: 124 / 124 Cien años de soledad 20x
: 5479 / 5500 5500 pages - Reading
: 51 / 55 FSI Basic Spanish 3x
: 309 / 506 Camino a Macondo

Dragon27
Blue Belt
Posts: 616
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:40 am
Languages: Russian (N)
English - best foreign language
Polish, Spanish - passive advanced
Tatar, German, French, Greek - studying
x 1375

Re: Hours until native listening?

Postby Dragon27 » Thu May 25, 2023 9:59 am

I definitely understand much more from that McKinley speech than from the Russian recording (if listening without subtitles).

Here's another classic.
3 x

Gaoling97
Yellow Belt
Posts: 84
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:48 am
Location: 中國
Languages: English (N), German (Advanced), Chinese (Intermediate)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18675
x 322

Re: Hours until native listening?

Postby Gaoling97 » Thu May 25, 2023 10:30 am

Irena wrote:
Gaoling97 wrote:This means not just C2 level, and it doesn't just mean you understand almost everything you hear (though of course that is part of it), but that you're at the point where listening is completely effortless, where you have to expend virtually no energy to understand something, even with extremely colloquial speech, slurred/heavily reduced speech, low audio quality etc. Where you are able to easily follow group conversations with many people constantly interrupting each other.

Hmm... I feel no functional differences in my ability to understand my native language (Serbian) and English, but comprehension is not "effortless" for either under the circumstances that you describe. Poor quality audio (I don't mean not-top-notch; I mean really poor quality), highly non-standard speech... And then there are the dialects! Your profile says you're a native English speaker. Okay, so does that mean you can effortlessly understand all varieties of English (both high and low prestige)?

Just out of curiosity, do you native English speakers understand this effortlessly?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6ZUneyU7Vo

'Coz I sure don't. I understand a bit here, a bit there, and maybe it would all become clear if I listened to it ten times. :lol: Now, I wish I had a comparable (comparably bad) recording in Serbian so I could directly compare my ability to understand. Alas!

Edit: Aha! Here's a very old Serbian recording:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74Q7RsDEP3E

It's not as old as the McKinley speech, but pretty old (WWI), and I suppose roughly comparable in terms of quality. Yeah, I guess I understand the Serbian version a bit better after all. Interesting! "Effortlessly," though? Hell no. I understand more than I do from the McKinley speech, though.

Oh, and this (Russian, late 19th century) is utterly incomprehensible to me without the subtitles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtKxEahcZqk

Now, if I read the subtitles, I can detect what corresponds to what. ;) The fact that there are subtitles tells me that native Russian speakers would really struggle to understand as well.


I see what you're saying, and maybe I should not have used the word "effortlessly", but I think you're taking it a little too literally. You can of course always construct an example of something that is hard to understand (just take something that's easy to understand and gradually degrade the audio quality until it isn't, or just go sufficiently far back in history), but my point is there is a pretty wide band of stuff that natives will almost always be able to understand that most learners just would not easily be able to, even otherwise very advanced ones. Or at least have a significantly easier time, even if not "effortless".

As another example, there probably are indeed certain dialects/accents that I (as an American) would have trouble understanding, but still most likely understand far better than almost any learner who hasn't gone out of their way to expose themselves to them.

You yourself even found this with the WWI Serbian recording, which may be a bit of evidence that your Serbian listening skills are still at least somewhat more broad than your English listening skills (despite claiming C2 on your profile, which I don't doubt). Whether or not this is functionally a useful skill in and of itself is beside the question.
0 x

Irena
Green Belt
Posts: 392
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2022 11:42 am
Languages: Serbian (N), English (C2), French (C1), Russian (C1), Czech (C1), dabbled in a couple of others, dreaming of many others
x 861

Re: Hours until native listening?

Postby Irena » Thu May 25, 2023 10:52 am

Gaoling97 wrote:I see what you're saying, and maybe I should not have used the word "effortlessly", but I think you're taking it a little too literally.

Maybe I am indeed taking it too literally. But the thing is, the only time I'll legitimately struggle to understand spoken English is if I deliberately dig up difficult-to-understand English. In practice, that means either really poor quality audio, or someone speaking in a highly non-standard dialect. Here's a high-quality recording of Scottish English:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luuA6bEoQIE

Hmm... I understand bits and pieces, but it's tough. The thing is, though, I think it would be quite tough for most Americans, too. Now you could do a study and compare the listening skills of native speakers on the one hand, and highly proficient non-natives on the other, and you'd get results of some kind. In what real life situations does it actually matter, though? Well, I suppose it matters if you're the person tasked with writing up a transcript of a difficult-to-understand audio recording. So, there's that. ;)

Oh, and then there are the movies. There was that thread about why modern movies are so difficult to understand, even for native speakers. :lol:
4 x

User avatar
språker
Yellow Belt
Posts: 88
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:46 am
Location: Vilnius, Lithuania
Languages: Swedish (N), English (C1), German (B2), French (A2), Lithuanian (B1 -- studying)
x 345

Re: Hours until native listening?

Postby språker » Thu May 25, 2023 11:09 am

I have to some extent come to peace with that there are so many things that I don’t understand. Reasons I can think of:

  1. My hearing is getting worse
  2. Lack of enough context (for me)
  3. Some people are simply much smarter
  4. Not enough of domain knowledge
All these affect my listening comprehension in my native language, and then it gets worse for languages that I have a lesser command of. At least using a non-native language gives me an extra excuse :D
4 x

german2k01
Green Belt
Posts: 467
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:16 pm
Location: Germany
Languages: English, Urdu, and German
x 573

Re: Hours until native listening?

Postby german2k01 » Thu May 25, 2023 11:39 am

Just sharing my experience so please take it with a pinch of salt.

I am living in Germany and learning German.

1. At 2500 listening hours, I visited a local post office where German workers spoke pretty fast and slurred their words. I could understand them 50% and the rest 50% I had no clue about.

2. Fast forward to 4000 hours mark, (this additional listening 1500 came from listening to 100 audiobooks, radio broadcasts, TV shows, and movies but no music). I visited the same post office, and encountered the same workers, this time their German sounded super clear and I felt like I did not miss anything. Language flew like "effortless" just like it flew in my native language Urdu.

3. I visited my university. I listened to my librarian, and listened to workers working in mensa/restaurant. I could easily understand them without straining my mind.

However, sometimes I still can not understand if a teenage girl spoke to me quickly.

I have done approximately 4200 hours of listening until this point. My next target is to reach 6000 hours mark just to gauge if there is an improvement. I still think that Dr. Brown's recommended time period is closer to the truth; 4 years of listening and 6 hours of constant listening every day will develop good listening skills. Again he is not a likable researcher here along with Dr.Krashen.

Therefore, you have to exercise your own judgment but I can tell you for sure 4000 hours of listening are not enough to understand every native speaker effortlessly. More hours are needed again it is based on my personal observation.
6 x

Irena
Green Belt
Posts: 392
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2022 11:42 am
Languages: Serbian (N), English (C2), French (C1), Russian (C1), Czech (C1), dabbled in a couple of others, dreaming of many others
x 861

Re: Hours until native listening?

Postby Irena » Thu May 25, 2023 12:14 pm

Gaoling97 wrote:Just a more general question, I guess. Does anybody have any estimates how many hours you would need to reach a native-like level of listening comprehension? Even if your estimates are only based off of personal anecdotes.

I've thought about this a bit more. If you take the question quite literally, then the answer is probably "it's never going to be enough, no matter what you do." You'll always be slightly inferior to native speakers in some ways. You may be superior to them (some of them) in other ways, because listening is not a purely linguistic skill. It also requires a certain amount of interpreting and synthesis (which is a matter of general cognitive ability and education), which is why some non-native speakers can pass C2 level exams, whereas plenty of native speakers would fail.

But to get to the point where your listening skills are perfectly adequate for almost any situation you might find yourself in (well, maybe not if you were being mugged by a criminal who was speaking in an unfamiliar dialect...) - who knows. Thousands of hours, across a wide variety of situations. You can't just listen to podcasts, or just go bars and restaurants with your friends. You need to do everything. You probably do need to live in a country in which your target language is spoken and actually use your target language in almost all situations (so, no "expat bubble" please). Maybe it's true that my Serbian listening skills remain a tiny bit better than my English skills (I'm not completely sure), but you know, I spent a decade in the States, and during that time, I did in fact live my whole life in English. At some point, what feels like effortless comprehension in almost all situations set in. How much time did that take? Who knows... I can tell you that I don't expect to ever get there with any of my other languages.
4 x


Return to “Practical Questions and Advice”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests