Family language learning "emergency"

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Family language learning "emergency"

Postby sfuqua » Fri Apr 07, 2023 11:05 pm

My 16-year-old daughter, a native speaker of English, has been studying German for three years in high school. She is doing better than most US kids do in high school classes; she can read pretty well, but she is probably still at around A2 speaking, the best I can tell. She speaks German about an hour a day in class, a lot of it in pretty unstructured conversation with other learners. Her teacher is excellent, the best I can tell. She leaves for Germany on a class trip in about 2 months. :D

Since the Christmas holiday, she has slipped from being near the top of the class to being in the bottom half in speaking. She has regular oral tests with her teacher (with the whole class watching). Some of these tests take the form of a conversation with another student and some with the teacher. Recently, she has started messing up on these oral activities. She chokes badly as soon as she knows that her speech is being evaluated, and it seems she is getting worse. I have heard some warnings of this in casual conversation, but today when I picked her up, her face looked like a thundercloud. I asked her what was wrong; she told me nothing was wrong, and then broke down sobbing. She said that she doesn't know what to do; she just keeps getting worse.
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She did poorly in a conversation test with another girl, and her teacher took the girls aside and asked them what was happening; their German was getting worse. She said he told them that he wouldn't give them negative feedback, but that he cared about them. She is devastated right now. :shock:

I suggested that the solution she needed was more practice speaking. I was going to suggest shadowing and reading aloud to try to get German word order (what she says falls apart under pressure) more automatic, but she got impatient with my suggestions, since she already does an hour or so of German homework every night (but not speaking).

It is painful, since I know a little bit about learning languages; she is a kid that was very enthusiastic about learning German, and was even trying to figure out how she could leverage her German into moving to the EU eventually. Now she is falling apart.

I have many ideas, but I am Dad, and I may be the last one she will listen to. :roll: I am not sure if she has a language problem or a confidence problem. What can I do to help? :?
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Re: Family language learning "emergency"

Postby Picaboo » Fri Apr 07, 2023 11:22 pm

It sounds more like a confidence problem caused by the evaluation method. This is especially hard on introverts. But you would know her best.

If she is an introvert, she might like the podcast Shhh, I'm learning, which talks about the challenges introverts face in language learning.

The most important thing is that the class doesn't kill her love of German. Grades come and go, which is something she won't understand right now. Share your love of languages and its ups and downs.

Personally, I would get her an Italki tutor she can talk with, someone who also coaches, and is positive, positive, positive and gives no negative feedback whatsoever. If you think it's confidence. It can't hurt, either way.
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Re: Family language learning "emergency"

Postby leosmith » Sat Apr 08, 2023 6:23 am

Picaboo wrote:I would get her an Italki tutor she can talk with
I second this. I see there are 42 native German teachers that charge $15/hr or less. Half hour classes may be the better choice. It might be a good idea for her to have completely unstructured conversations, 100% German, with the Italki tutors to balance out those laser focused dialogs that she has to do in class.
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Re: Family language learning "emergency"

Postby Cavesa » Sat Apr 08, 2023 7:30 am

Hi Sfuqua,

this is a very sad situation and not that rare. You might remember the log of our odyssey of saving my little sister's German, when she was 16 and failing the class after years of dumb French teacher destroying her and then switching to German in the pandemic learning conditions. I was also the favourite victim of an English teacher bully for four years at a similar age and managed to get through that. Here are my two cents:

Does she have as many regular oral tests as the rest of the class? Does the teacher really have sooo much time to test everyone so often? I somehow doubt that. If she is getting tested more often than others, it needs to stop. It is singling her out socially, it is clearly breaking her spirit, and it is creating a cycle of self fulfilling prophecies "I will speak=I will fail".Perhaps the teacher even means well and just stupidly believes this will help. Many teachers lack empathy and common sense. Have you discussed the situation with them? Have you asked other parents, whether there is now overall more pressure in the German classes, or whether your kid is the only one?

Whether or not you manage to get the teacher to stop, she needs to feel supported. One of the worst things, back when I was the victim of a teacher bully (who shouted at everyone, but had a favourite target in every group and I was an easy target. She was shouting at me and publicly humiliating me in every class), was the lack of activity of my parents. It wasn't helping, that they tried to make me study more and even find summer classes etc. It wasn't helping that my dad supposedly talked with the teacher but never went into confrontation and basically appeared to be on their side, telling me how to behave differently. (A few years after that, a whole group had a problem and their parents were much more active. That was a bit of a satisfaction).

All the nice ideas like an italki teacher may be of very limited help, if you don't address the root of the problem, which is public suffering in the German class. Even if you cannot manage to make it stop, there need to be clear signs you are trying.

sfuqua wrote:She speaks German about an hour a day in class, a lot of it in pretty unstructured conversation with other learners. Her teacher is excellent, the best I can tell. She leaves for Germany on a class trip in about 2 months. :D

Spending most of the time in unstructured conversation with other beginners, that is not really much a confidence giving structure. There needs to be balance between such practice and between structure. Back when I was struggling, and also when I was getting my young sister (16 at that time) from failing German class to A2 in a month, structure was the key. It is very hard to feel achievement, when you don't know, what you are learning. When you have no idea how far you are, what are the immediate goals.

It's actually a very common problem I've been observing about most highschool language teachers. A well meant failure to just follow a coursebook (and supplement it as needed), and instead a chaos of worksheets and tons of exercises with little structure. Running in circles with extremely few "yep, we've managed to reach another small achievement" moments.

Contrary to popular belief, I am convinced following a coursebook can help a lot (sure, not purely a coursebook). But when you actually get to the end of another unit, you see a physical proof that you've made some progress. You see there are fewer pages left to the end of the book.

Your daughter needs achievements. "She keeps getting worse". At what exactly? Is she getting worse at German, or at public speaking? Is she getting worse compared to her past skills, or has the class moved on and she just isn't keeping up? At what exactly is she worse? This is very hard to know without structure.

Since the Christmas holiday, she has slipped from being near the top of the class to being in the bottom half in speaking. She has regular oral tests with her teacher (with the whole class watching). Some of these tests take the form of a conversation with another student and some with the teacher. Recently, she has started messing up on these oral activities.

What has been studied by the class in the last three months? And why is she not keeping up?

But this public circus is clearly not helping.

She chokes badly as soon as she knows that her speech is being evaluated, and it seems she is getting worse.

Aaaaaand that's how you scar a person for life and make them underperform and not reach their potential in the short and long term.

She did poorly in a conversation test with another girl, and her teacher took the girls aside and asked them what was happening; their German was getting worse. She said he told them that he wouldn't give them negative feedback, but that he cared about them. She is devastated right now. :shock:

The teacher was asking????!! The teacher is causing the situation and then is surprised. The teacher should be the one to give honest and constructive feedback. The teacher is not really doing their job, if they are not proposing solutions but instead asking the student to pinpoint the problem. It is their job and responsibility to give helpful tips, to recommend what to study, and to encourage. No wonder your daughter is devastated.

This is not a good teacher. They may mean well, but they are just behaving in a totally alibistic and lazy way. They test all the time, and in spite of that can't give useful feedback. Then what are all those oral tests for??

I suggested that the solution she needed was more practice speaking. I was going to suggest shadowing and reading aloud to try to get German word order (what she says falls apart under pressure) more automatic, but she got impatient with my suggestions, since she already does an hour or so of German homework every night (but not speaking).

While it looks like an obvious solution "she just needs to practice speaking", I don't think it is a viable one. I am not at all surprised, that she is not receptive to your ideas. Speaking has become the synonyme of suffering, and you are (without meaning to) sort of telling her to suffer more.

She does an hour of German homework per day. That is a lot. Investing so much and getting so little in return, that is of course frustrating. What kinds of homework does she have? What activities? Is it structured? Does she do well? Does it address her German problems?

Yeah, she needs more speaking practice (like almost every learner), but that is not the first step. First, she needs to gain more confidence again. She needs to stop feeling German=failure and suffering. She is already A2, she used to be enthusiastic in the past, and she has reading as the strongest skill. So, how about starting with something totally different. For example Asterix comic books in German or something? The point being to enjoy German again, to practice, and to feel achievement.


It is painful, since I know a little bit about learning languages; she is a kid that was very enthusiastic about learning German, and was even trying to figure out how she could leverage her German into moving to the EU eventually. Now she is falling apart.

I have many ideas, but I am Dad, and I may be the last one she will listen to. :roll: I am not sure if she has a language problem or a confidence problem. What can I do to help? :?


From what I read in your post, it is a teacher caused confidence problem that secondarily leads to a huge language problem and can destroy her positive relationship not only to German, but language learning and overall study attitude forever.
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Re: Family language learning "emergency"

Postby Irena » Sat Apr 08, 2023 10:10 am

sfuqua wrote:I have many ideas, but I am Dad, and I may be the last one she will listen to. :roll: I am not sure if she has a language problem or a confidence problem. What can I do to help? :?


Let me guess. Your daughter has always done well in school, is used to getting straight As, and once a test goes wrong, she is devastated. Does this sound right? My guess is that one of her speaking tests went badly for whatever reason (could be anything: maybe she was tired, maybe she forgot a couple of key words at just the wrong moment, maybe she didn't study the particular chapter that the speaking test covered), she felt embarrassed in front of the whole class, and it's spiraled from there. So, it's a confidence issue.

How can she overcome this? Good question. What exactly are these oral tests like? It might help to overprepare for them a couple of times (assuming she knows more or less exactly what she's going to be tested on), so that she can do really well those couple of times and then hopefully (re)gain confidence as a result. Otherwise, it's trickier. Picaboo is right about this, though.

Picaboo wrote:The most important thing is that the class doesn't kill her love of German. Grades come and go, which is something she won't understand right now. Share your love of languages and its ups and downs.


I second the recommendation to get her an Italki tutor, too.

For what it's worth, having the experience of failing (and then hopefully recovering from it) can actually be quite useful in the long run. You want to be able to prepare, but know very well that you're not fully prepared, and then still do your best under pressure, knowing full well that you might still fail. This is an extremely important skill (think e.g. job interviews). The way I learned this when I was in school was by taking part in various academic competitions. They can throw almost anything at you (so, there's no way to be "fully prepared" the way you can be for most school tests, assuming you study). So, I learned that sometimes I'd succeed, sometimes I'd fail (even though I studied!), but I still needed to persist and keep trying, and do my best under pressure, realizing that it might or might not be enough. And if it turns out not to have been enough, then there's always another time. Maybe German is where your daughter learns this? ;)

ETA: Oh, and btw, sfuqua: if you think the Dad is the last person your daughter will listen to, then why don't you talk to the teacher, try to figure out where the problem is, and then have the teacher offer the advice that you came up with together? It sounds like the teacher cares, so this should be doable.
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Re: Family language learning "emergency"

Postby BeaP » Sat Apr 08, 2023 11:49 am

I think you have two separate problems.

1. Class performance

This huge drop in performance in such a short time is certainly alarming. I'd ask the teacher for an appointment and try to pinpoint the problem. It's possible that they learn situations one after the other (e.g. asking for directions, buying things in a shop), and she just struggles with the new one for some reason. But it's just an idea, you need to ask. Check the other subjects: has she started to struggle in other fields? If testing is less frequent, it might become visible only later.

2. Learning German in general

I think Cavesa has made a lot of good points. Kids need structure, clear goals and requirements. I learned German in high school to B2 in 2 years. 1st year: studying and drills. 2nd year: studying and practice. For me it was a huge advantage that we started with a grammar-based approach. We also studied vocabulary and wrote frequent tests. We needed to get the articles (der, die, das) right as well, it was necessary to know them to get the point for the correct answer. I haven't really used German since then, but this base is still very strong, and I can build upon it again if I want to.

Think about French and Spanish. Imagine that you haven't learned the conjugations of the basic verbs and try to speak this way. Now multiply this problem with 10 and you get the same situation in the case of German. Someone who hasn't studied the articles, the conjugation of verbs, the correct word order in different structures is in a very difficult situation when it comes to speaking German. These structures need to be automatised with a lot of drills, one needs to 'overlearn' them to achieve a kind of unconscious usage. There are so many rules to follow, that there's simply not enough time to think them over while speaking.

I'd choose a good grammar exercise book (A1-B1) and try to do 2 pages a day. I'd also download some textbook conversations with transcription, and listen to them for 15 minutes a day. (Every dialogue should be played at least 20 times by the end. Repetition is more important than variety.) Hueber and Klett has various options both for grammar and coursebook dialogues. Moreover, the latter is usually free.

I know this sounds super boring, but kids need to see the end of the road, and they need to feel constant improvement to keep their motivation. And there are a lot of modern textbooks fit for this age group.
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Re: Family language learning "emergency"

Postby Cavesa » Sat Apr 08, 2023 2:51 pm

Irena wrote:Let me guess. Your daughter has always done well in school, is used to getting straight As, and once a test goes wrong, she is devastated. Does this sound right?

Based on the original post, it doesn't sound right:
Since the Christmas holiday, she has slipped from being near the top of the class to being in the bottom half in speaking. She has regular oral tests with her teacher (with the whole class watching). Some of these tests take the form of a conversation with another student and some with the teacher.

Really, doesn't sound like one failed test and one moment of embarassment.

How can she overcome this? Good question. What exactly are these oral tests like? It might help to overprepare for them a couple of times (assuming she knows more or less exactly what she's going to be tested on), so that she can do really well those couple of times and then hopefully (re)gain confidence as a result.

I agree.

But the usual problem: teachers are sometimes unable to clearly define their expectations and what is being studied. It was the main problem, when I was trying to help my sister catch up with the class in French (before she switched to German and got to follow a coursebook). While other subjects had a clear curriculum, the language teacher was just being vague, refused to give a list of topics to cover, no coursebook was being followed, and we got just a dumb "oh, just what she heard in class" definition, which clearly wasn't clear enough for her. And I've heard the same problem from various other people, and had the same issue back in my days too.

Really, the girl will probably need to overstudy, but she needs to know what. If the teacher is capable of giving an overview of the last few months to Sfuqua, it should go well. If the teacher fails to do so, it will be much harder.

For what it's worth, having the experience of failing (and then hopefully recovering from it) can actually be quite useful in the long run. You want to be able to prepare, but know very well that you're not fully prepared, and then still do your best under pressure, knowing full well that you might still fail. This is an extremely important skill (think e.g. job interviews).

While I agree, I would just like to point out that it needs to be possible to win. The experience of failing and than winning is very important and formative. When I got my sister from failing her German class to awesome success, it changed her whole study approach, habits, and confidence. But what I see described in the original post looks much more like a situation, where it becomes more and more impossible to win, and the more probable result is a broken confidence, lost hope, and hate towards (language) learning.

Some teachers stupidly think that just humiliating a person again and again and again is the most formative and motivating moment. It is not. After some point, the student just breaks.

ETA: Oh, and btw, sfuqua: if you think the Dad is the last person your daughter will listen to, then why don't you talk to the teacher, try to figure out where the problem is, and then have the teacher offer the advice that you came up with together? It sounds like the teacher cares, so this should be doable.


Yes, this is what I suggested too. Without a father-teacher discussion, this is unlikely to turn out well. If the teacher can give a list of stuff to study, it would be great. And if there is any sign that the teacher may actually be just putting pressure on this one kid and not everyone, it needs to be stopped too. It is simply weird that there is such a change in a few months.

BeaP wrote: Kids need structure, clear goals and requirements.

Not only kids! It is absolutely normal and human to need structure, clear goals and requirements. Lack of structure is the number one problem I see in the online learning communities too, and it's mostly adults.

I learned German in high school to B2 in 2 years. 1st year: studying and drills. 2nd year: studying and practice. For me it was a huge advantage that we started with a grammar-based approach. We also studied vocabulary and wrote frequent tests. We needed to get the articles (der, die, das) right as well, it was necessary to know them to get the point for the correct answer. I haven't really used German since then, but this base is still very strong, and I can build upon it again if I want to.


This is a very good example. Ages ago, my then boyfriend was really struggling with their German class, exactly because the teacher avoided grammar explanations and just expected the beginners to speak and speak. He got better as soon as he got a grammar book and started learning. Well, he abandonned German as soon as he was allowed to anyways. But he was no longer at a risk of failing and he was much less frustrated in class.

A strong grammar base is a must for speaking. For some time, you can just parrot basic stuff and so on. But this breaks at some moment. A2 is actually quite a likely point, as the student is expected to branch out further away from just model situations and dialogues. In German, there is also a lot of grammar being taught at A2 and B1. A lot!

So, if there has suddenly been a lot of new stuff in the last few months, and the girl hasn't learnt all that yet, it might totally explain while she is suddenly failing at speaking.

I'd choose a good grammar exercise book (A1-B1) and try to do 2 pages a day. I'd also download some textbook conversations with transcription, and listen to them for 15 minutes a day. (Every dialogue should be played at least 20 times by the end. Repetition is more important than variety.) Hueber and Klett has various options both for grammar and coursebook dialogues. Moreover, the latter is usually free.

I know this sounds super boring, but kids need to see the end of the road, and they need to feel constant improvement to keep their motivation. And there are a lot of modern textbooks fit for this age group.


Everyone needs to see the end of the road, I'd say. I know very few learners, who do well without milestones. Even on this forum, they are a minority. We've even invented a bunch of challenges to put at least some structure in the not structured parts of learning.

All the recommendations on other resources (including Italki teachers!) are however missing one important piece: the info on what is being taught in the class. No matter how hard she studies and what she objectively achieves, it needs to align. Without aligning it to the class curriculum and fixing the issue in the classroom, it won't really help imho.
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Re: Family language learning "emergency"

Postby Irena » Sat Apr 08, 2023 3:01 pm

Cavesa wrote:Really, doesn't sound like one failed test and one moment of embarassment.

Well, if I'm right (which I may or may not be), the girl had one bad test, which shook her confidence. Then she had another test, but because her confidence was shaken, she did badly again. And then it spiralled from there, and now she has a mental block.

Personally, the only "method" that's ever worked for me in terms of overcoming mental blocks like this has been overpreparation. Prepare more and better than I would for something else, so it doesn't end in disaster. Do that a number of times, and the mental block loosens up, at which point, overpreparation is no longer necessary. Depending on what these tests look like, overpreparation may or may not be possible.
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Re: Family language learning "emergency"

Postby Xenops » Sat Apr 08, 2023 5:42 pm

Since the Christmas holiday, she has slipped from being near the top of the class to being in the bottom half in speaking. She has regular oral tests with her teacher (with the whole class watching). Some of these tests take the form of a conversation with another student and some with the teacher. Recently, she has started messing up on these oral activities. She chokes badly as soon as she knows that her speech is being evaluated, and it seems she is getting worse.


I'm sorry--but what professional teacher does this?! To teenagers, no less? Oral tests in front of the whole class? No wonder her confidence is shot! In all of my years taking language courses, I've never seen this. The most comparable project is students giving rehearsed presentations at the end of the semester.

But can you imagine being a self-conscious teenager with limited language skills, and your teacher tests you in front of your peers? Many people have anxiety from speech class, in their native language. Imagine the stress of speech class in a foreign language, not rehearsed, while trying to think on the fly before your friends, crushes and possibly bullies? I would hate German, or any other language, too!

I say, ask her if she wants to stay in the class. If she doesn't, respect her wishes. More is at stake than her German skills.
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Re: Family language learning "emergency"

Postby Irena » Sat Apr 08, 2023 5:55 pm

Xenops wrote:I'm sorry--but what professional teacher does this?! To teenagers, no less? Oral tests in front of the whole class? No wonder her confidence is shot! In all of my years taking language courses, I've never seen this. The most comparable project is students giving rehearsed presentations at the end of the semester.

This is in fact extremely common in some education systems. I was routinely examined orally in front of the entire class throughout my primary and secondary education, in most of my school subjects. Students will find this is particularly scary if you train them to think it's particularly scary.
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