Family language learning "emergency"

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themethod
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Re: Family language learning "emergency"

Postby themethod » Sat Apr 08, 2023 9:01 pm

As an introvert myself, I've found that I have much less aversion to speaking in Spanish than Russian, mostly because I don't have to think so much about word order, declensions, etc. I'm guessing that German is similar to Russian in this regard.

My first thought was to suggest she do some kind of audio-based speaking course, like Pimsleur or Glossika. These may feel less like homework, since she can do them while she's cleaning her room (or whatever it is 16-year-old girls do these days). They'll help create more automaticity in speaking, especially in the more everyday phrases and constructions she'll be using at the A2/B1 level, but she'll also get to hear herself speaking the language in a "safe" environment.
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Re: Family language learning "emergency"

Postby sfuqua » Sat Apr 08, 2023 10:53 pm

She was less weepy today and decided to tell me about what is going on. Now, I'm mad.

I think she expects perfection from herself, and that isn't going to happen with language learning. She has never got anything below an A for her final grade in any subject in high school.

Sometimes the oral tests are pretty unstructured, but other times there are a series of points that one is supposed to get to during the conversation.
For whatever reason, her teacher interrupts her during the tests and corrects her, and tells her that she has missed this or that point. During the test.

She had what she thought were some cute turns of phrase that she wanted to work into her conversation yesterday, and she was interrupted in the middle of one of her specially prepared sentences to criticize her for not completing one of the tasks she was supposed to do earlier in the conversation. She knew she had missed it and planned to circle back and get it later, but after the interruption, she was lost.
Yesterday, she was paired with a different partner than usual.
Her language partner for the test got lost a few times too.

My daughter was interrupted and went through the whole test, being redirected.
After the test, his comment in front of the class was, "I let you keep going because I hoped you would get it together, but you never really did".

I bet I couldn't pass a test in English under these circumstances.

I think this pedagogy sucks.
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Re: Family language learning "emergency"

Postby Irena » Sat Apr 08, 2023 11:30 pm

sfuqua wrote:Sometimes the oral tests are pretty unstructured, but other times there are a series of points that one is supposed to get to during the conversation.

So, how many points is she supposed to get through? Heh. You just gave me flashbacks of my Russian exam. TRKI-3 (C1), to be precise. They give you bunch of points that you have to get through in very little time (speaking) or space (writing), and if you don't, you lose a ton of points even if your Russian is perfect. Which means that if you want to pass, you need to spend quite a lot of time drilling the particular format, when that won't do much of anything for your Russian (or for your overall academic skills). Anyway, I passed, and I'm glad I have the certificate, but it was not a well made exam. At all. Anyway, sound like your daughter's dealing with something similar... Now. Would the teacher be open to discussing this with you, or would that just make things worse?
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Re: Family language learning "emergency"

Postby leosmith » Sun Apr 09, 2023 2:26 am

sfuqua wrote:"I let you keep going because I hoped you would get it together, but you never really did"
Wow, what a nice guy. Teacher of the year. Not gonna find that "hard love" in many high schools these days.

Can she quit the class, learn it on her own, and still get credit by passing a test given by a different teacher? If not, she is going to (continue to) learn about the sorrows of dealing with difficult people in our lives, in addition to, or instead of, German. Wish her the best.
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Re: Family language learning "emergency"

Postby Doitsujin » Sun Apr 09, 2023 4:26 am

sfuqua wrote:Since the Christmas holiday, she has slipped from being near the top of the class to being in the bottom half in speaking.
No offense, but have you considered the possibility that she might be facing social problems that you're not aware of?

In addition to the other excellent recommendations, you also might want to consider getting a Netflix subscription and encourage her to watch one German TV show or movie every day. Or get a VPN subscription and access the media libraries of the stated-operated German TV networks.
Here are some recommendations: Learn German with TV Shows: 28 Best Series and Where to Watch

Ask her what her favorite US TV shows and movies are and the German-speaking LLORG members will make recommendations for similar themed German TV shows and movies.
She could also re-watch the dubbed version of one of her favorite US TV shows. IIRC, emk reported that he greatly improved his French by watching the French dubbed version of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
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Re: Family language learning "emergency"

Postby Irena » Sun Apr 09, 2023 9:50 am

leosmith wrote:Can she quit the class, learn it on her own, and still get credit by passing a test given by a different teacher? If not, she is going to (continue to) learn about the sorrows of dealing with difficult people in our lives, in addition to, or instead of, German. Wish her the best.

He may be a "difficult person," but to me, this sounds like the communicative approach gone awry. "Let's have a natural conversation in German," which is in fact not natural at all, and requires the student to spend a massive amount of time on test-taking strategies rather than on German. It's frustrating any way you cut it. But if that's how he was taught to teach, then he's probably wondering why it's suddenly failing spectacularly...
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Re: Family language learning "emergency"

Postby tiia » Mon Apr 10, 2023 7:24 am

My first thought was "Pressure off". No overpreparation, no additional lessons, no whatsoever before you know what is causing the problems.
The circle that has started was probably introduced from the outside and therefore only optimising the student is the wrong way to solve this. Something has changed and it is important to find out what is is and what is keeping the current cycle alive.

Therefore you should definitely ask your daughter what she thinks is causing problems. She may not even immediately be able to point it out, but may need time to be able to say what may be the root cause. This is even more likely as she probably did not have to deal with these problems earlier in her life.

When someone mentioned that one may have to think of the development in the other subjects, I would have added that the problem could have be induced even by another teacher, who is just not testing so often. But after your last post this does not seemto be the case.

Even though the testing situation in general sounds not too nice, it doesn't have to be too bad if it has worked out before and if everyone is used to it. (Note that at least this girl probably did not struggle with the format before. Though we cannot be sure about the classmates.)



Now that your daughter was able to tell you what has happend in the class and what is causing the problems. (at least during the last test?) see whether there has been more like this earlier.
Listen to her carefully and then talk to the teacher. But first listen.
Tell her you will talk to the teacher so that they hopefully stop doing,what is causing the problems. Ask her what kind of changes she would like to see.

The teacher even asked what has been causing problems, so I'd hope they are open to solve the issue. If it is only about not interrupting the students during the tests that should be doable. If that is all it needs, it is an extremly simple solution. Make clear that they are bringing the students out of their concept and therefore are causing underperformance. - Something they have even noticed themselves!
If the teacher feels unable to let the students do the test uninterrupted they should stop those tests at least for a while (or alltogether).
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Postby anitarrc » Tue Apr 11, 2023 6:45 am

I really feel for her.
More than 40 years ago I went into my French BAC oral exam, all went fine till a nasty teacher on the exam board interrupted me mid sentence, mid thought and asked me about a grammar structure.
Imagine as an adult you are explaining a complicated machine to a client in an introductory course and some superior butts in to ask you about the rubbish in the kitchen. ( happened to me)

you "expert" obvious does it ALL the time.
Try to change the course.

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Re: Family language learning "emergency"

Postby Cavesa » Tue Apr 11, 2023 10:37 am

sfuqua wrote:I think she expects perfection from herself, and that isn't going to happen with language learning. She has never got anything below an A for her final grade in any subject in high school.
This is the only part, that has to do with personal attitude. Yep, she'll need to accept less than A from time to time as no tragedy.

Sometimes the oral tests are pretty unstructured, but other times there are a series of points that one is supposed to get to during the conversation.

Yes, there should be clearer expectations. Free talking with points to get through, that is a rather specific skill, and really hard at A2ish level, because you no longer have so very simple dialogue patterns to know, in which you basically just substitute words, but you don't have the skills to be free enough in your expression yet.

I'd say in this method, the teacher is giving A2ish students a task more fit for B1 or B2. The only solution would be self studying, to get there fast. But yeah, it sucks.

For whatever reason, her teacher interrupts her during the tests and corrects her, and tells her that she has missed this or that point. During the test.

She had what she thought were some cute turns of phrase that she wanted to work into her conversation yesterday, and she was interrupted in the middle of one of her specially prepared sentences to criticize her for not completing one of the tasks she was supposed to do earlier in the conversation. She knew she had missed it and planned to circle back and get it later, but after the interruption, she was lost.

Yeah, this is hard and annoying. I remember the Nightmare Teacher, who used to simply jump into the middle of the sentence, start shouting at the person for any kind of mistake just made, then went on with losely connected speech for ten minutes, then requested starting from the same place, and shouted again (because who could have remembered their sentence for ten minutes and just continue).

I always prefered a different teacher, who let people finish, then corrected and explained, and also encouraged.

Yesterday, she was paired with a different partner than usual.
Her language partner for the test got lost a few times too.

Hmm, is the couple graded separately or together?

This has always been one of the hardest things about some language exams for me (CAE, GZB2), you get paired with another person, another learner (not a normal speaker) and you need to get through it as best as possible. The exam makers probably think, that this is very real life like. But it is not. Talking to another non native is very different (and it must be hell to be graded together as two A2 beginners!!!), especially if you need to get through a list of points or phrases. Their problems amplify yours and vice versa. Even if you get individual grades, your displayed skill is affected by the conditions set by the partner.

The only way to be sure to get through this: getting out of A2 fast. Irena said it well, to overstudy. But there is no simple manageable amount of things to overstudy. Comfort in this discipline requires simply a different language level!

My daughter was interrupted and went through the whole test, being redirected.
After the test, his comment in front of the class was, "I let you keep going because I hoped you would get it together, but you never really did".


Ouch. This reminds me of a situation, where I was told about something I was doing wrong at work after months of a misunderstanding growing. My bosses hated this thing about me, but I thought they hated something totally different and opposite and my attempts to fix the issue on my side therefore worsened the problem (which laid mainly in communication). When we finally had an evaluation meeting, it was very unpleasant to hear, but it helped enormously. Too bad I hadn't been told months earlier. :-D

Really, just letting a person dig deeper in a problem is not a good action, especially when dealing with kids. The teacher you are talking about is not good, nor well meaning, just incompetent, lazy, and alibistic imho. It may be "logical" to do this in some huge testing situations, but not for an everyday test of a teenage learner. The teacher makes the rules, they could totally step in and redirect in a sensible manner instead (after all, understanding the language and reacting is a conversation skill worth testing too).


I bet I couldn't pass a test in English under these circumstances.

I think this pedagogy sucks.


Yeah, this is a horrible situation. There should be clear rules. Irena describes a similarly (or worse) tested Russian skill at the official exam. Well, the difference is, that I suppose TRKI candidates know about this issue, prepare for it, and it is also a higher level exam (so they actually can be expected to adapt, not like an A2 learner).

I just find it interesting, that you initially descrbied the teacher as excellent, Sfuqua. Perhaps there has been some communication missing in the middle, such as the teacher clearly expecting their expectations to parents.

I wish you a lot of luck and strength in dealing with the situation. But just let me tell you that you are clearly a very good parent, as your kid has the trust to tell you all this, and as you care and want to do the best. Many wouldn't.
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Re: Family language learning "emergency"

Postby aije » Wed Apr 12, 2023 8:46 pm

Is your daughter still doing well in her other subjects? Are there any indications that there might be issues that extend beyond German class such as not wanting to go to school, loss of appetite or interest in activities she used to enjoy?
I certainly don't want to be alarmist, but depression is endemic among teenagers these days and the signs are often easily missed.
It's probably nothing. But keep an eye open and, if there is any doubt, get help for her.
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