Am I a native speaker of Mandarin?

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Re: Am I a native speaker of Mandarin?

Postby Iversen » Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:42 pm

To be a native speaker of something you should have learnt it as a child, but the definition of 'child' has been debated. I once read a research report (by Mado Proverbio) that showed that the amplitude of brain activity for a language was highest if the language had had been learnt before the age of five - a control group consisting of excellent speakers (from the language section of the EU, i.e. well tested speakers) had lower amplitude even though they were totally fluent in the languages in question. Other results have pointed at a higher age limit - sometimes even pushed up to the onset of puberty. But the age of seven should still be safely withing the limits of being a child. And let me just add that I don't consider myself as a native speaker of anything but Danish, even I started to learn English from TV at home before I got classes in it around the age of 11. But today I probably read and listen to as much English and Danish, and I regular notice that I'm thinking in English for no apparent reason - but I learnt it too late to call it a native language (and besides we didn't speak it at home)...

Which points to another problem: learning a language in school may be different from learning it at home, and that also applies to learning from others outside your home (comrades, neighbours, relatives). The problem with this is that it's hard to quantify the impact of different sources. But given all the stories about children who learn the local language of a new country before their parents I would assume that a native language can be picked up from other places than your home.

Since I don't speak neither Mandarin nor Hokkaido I just have to accept that the bulk of the linguists who aren't inside China see them as separate languages. But even if they weren't, a person might still be seen as a nativer speaker of both - at least that's my position. As I see it the criterion is that you can speak both and keep them separate, i.e. that when you start speaking either one of them then you can stick to that one instead of producing something in between or switching back and forth. My own parents only spoke Standard Danish, but we lived in parts of Jutland where I could have picked up a Jutish dialect - and then I might have been able to maintain a double identity based on Standard Danish and something that is counted as a dialect. But I didn't. I can just understand dialect speakers better than people who didn't grow up listening to them.
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Re: Am I a native speaker of Mandarin?

Postby Le Baron » Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:18 pm

It's tricky. In allf100's case the two languages in question reside in the same place; so this causes active bilingualism. I learned French from infancy, but there is a difference because in England (brace yourself for this) French isn't the language currency!

Certainly a situation like the OP's is found in many people who grew up in a place/family where a regional language is or was dominant in the home/village: Breton, Basque, Corse etc. An ex-girlfriend of mine grew up speaking Frisian in the home and at school, but the country-wide language is Dutch and that's the language she uses dominantly, but switches to Frisian when she visits her mother and environs (she can no longer write it). She classes her native languages as both Frisian and Dutch - also one of the few people I know personally here who doesn't use a guttural 'r' sound.

I see that allf100's post really turns on the question of having learned Mandarin past infancy and that it is essentially employed as a Chinese 'lingua franca'. Hokkien would be the native language and Mandarin the completely functional language of currency. In fact like many people who speak one central language to cover as much ground in places where many languages co-exist, as possible and perhaps another locally and at home. Being completely functional in both.
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Re: Am I a native speaker of Mandarin?

Postby tungemål » Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:46 pm

Question for allf100:
Can one read and write Hokkien? or is the situation so that when you read something as a Hokkien speaker, you are in fact reading Mandarin?
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Re: Am I a native speaker of Mandarin?

Postby allf100 » Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:41 pm

Iversen wrote: To be a native speaker of something you should have learnt it as a child, but the definition of 'child' has been debated.

I agree with you about this. Some people who have a gift in languages start learning foreign languages in their adulthood, and their proficiency of foreign language outbeats that of native speakers, when it comes to writing and/or speaking. Yet, I don't consider they are native speakers of foreign language(s).

I knew a Canadian who is well-known as a celebrity in China. His command of spoken Mandarin, way outshines mine and that of at least 70% Chinese people I would say. Mandarin is not his mother tongue at all. He started learning Mandarin in his 20s in Canada, and keeps learning after coming to China.

I think he does have a gift in languages /Mandarin. And besides that, I can imagine how many efforts he has paid for in learning Mandarin.

I have been learning English for decades, yet my English is not very desirable according to my own standard.

Iversen wrote: And let me just add that I don't consider myself as a native speaker of anything but Danish, even I started to learn English from TV at home before I got classes in it around the age of 11. But today I probably read and listen to as much English and Danish, and I regular notice that I'm thinking in English for no apparent reason - but I learnt it too late to call it a native language (and besides we didn't speak it at home)...

Again, I agree with you about this. I don't think you're native speaker of English either. Your proficiency in English is because of your education including self-education, environment, etc. Could I assume there is less genuine cultural and emotional recognition or affinity or bond to English?

Though my Mandarin is the outcome of education, but emotionally I do have very strong bond with Mandarin. Hokkien culture is a part of Chinese culture. I didn't learn my Mandarin in my earliest children but much later when I was seven years old, but my command of Mandarin both in writing and speaking are above the average of ordinary Chinese people, especially my Hokkien folks most of whose Mandarin is very accented. My spoken Mandarin is close to neutral. Of course, I don't think mine is very good, according to my own standard again. (I have much higher standard in languages.)
Iversen wrote:


Thank you very much for sharing your opinion and experience with us.
Last edited by allf100 on Sun Mar 26, 2023 1:58 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Am I a native speaker of Mandarin?

Postby allf100 » Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:55 pm

Le Baron wrote:I see that allf100's post really turns on the question of having learned Mandarin past infancy and that it is essentially employed as a Chinese 'lingua franca'. Hokkien would be the native language and Mandarin the completely functional language of currency.


Indeed, Mandarin is the functional language of currency in the mainland of China. If without Mandarin, many people in different areas cannot understand each other.

One day I phone called an official who is located in Sichuan province. She spoke to me in Sichuan dialect. I had to try very hard to understand, and finally I told her 'Would you please speak in Mandarin? I am afraid I cannot totally understand what you are saying'.

This is pretty much like English in India, Singapore etc. But Mandarin is not a foreign language to the majority of Chinese people who are ethnical Han. (It is a modified artificial language based on Beijing dialect and Hebei dialect. Sorry for repeating about this.)

Thank you very much for your input.
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Re: Am I a native speaker of Mandarin?

Postby allf100 » Sun Mar 26, 2023 12:28 am

tungemål wrote:Question for allf100:
Can one read and write Hokkien? or is the situation so that when you read something as a Hokkien speaker, you are in fact reading Mandarin?


Thank you for your question.

I would say there is not written Hokkien for Hokkien speakers in the mainland of China. At least written Hokkien is not known, seen by at least 99% native Hokkien speakers here. A few people argue there's a writing system for Hokkien, yet most of us (Hokkien speakers) just don't know. If so, it is as dead as a dodo.

Sometimes I read transliteration of Hokkien in Chinese characters or phonetic symbols created by individuals at will, and I had to speak out those words in pronunciation so that I could be possibly able to understand.

I don't know if there's a wildly recognized or formal recognised written system in Hokkien/Taiwanese among the people in Taiwan. I just can guess -no neither.

Written Cantonese is available and understood by Cantonese speakers.
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Re: Am I a native speaker of Mandarin?

Postby Sizen » Sun Mar 26, 2023 3:05 am

tungemål wrote:Question for allf100:
Can one read and write Hokkien? or is the situation so that when you read something as a Hokkien speaker, you are in fact reading Mandarin?

allf100 wrote:I would say there is not written Hokkien for Hokkien speakers in the mainland of China. At least written Hokkien is not known, seen by at least 99% native Hokkien speakers here. A few people argue there's a writing system for Hokkien, yet most of us (Hokkien speakers) just don't know. If so, it is as dead as a dodo.

[...]

I don't know if there's a wildly recognized or formal recognised written system in Hokkien/Taiwanese among the people in Taiwan. I just can guess -no neither.

I know the question was originally asked to OP, but I'll just sort of drop this here.

I went down a Hokkien rabbit hole on YouTube recently, and there was this interesting video that touches on this subject. It sounds like Hokkien used to have a somewhat prolific history of vernacular writing, but for many reasons, like in many other parts of the world, writing in Mandarin has become more common, replacing Literary Chinese as a lingua franca. The impression I get is that Hokkien speakers are in a diglossic situation, with Hokkien being spoken in the appropriate contexts (eg. among other speakers in less formal situations but not exclusively) and Mandarin being used elsewhere, especially in writing and more formal situations. You could maybe read Mandarin with Hokkien pronunciations, like Cantonese speakers often do with their language, but I personally don't know if enough Mandarin characters have standard readings in Hokkien for this to even be done.
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Re: Am I a native speaker of Mandarin?

Postby allf100 » Sun Mar 26, 2023 5:14 am

Welcome to Hokkien Wonderland. :D

Sizen wrote: The impression I get is that Hokkien speakers are in a diglossic situation, with Hokkien being spoken in the appropriate contexts (eg. among other speakers in less formal situations but not exclusively) and Mandarin being used elsewhere, especially in writing and more formal situations.


Currently, yes. Hokkien speakers are in a diglossic situation because of education. Except for some areas where ethnical minorities generally live, i.e. Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia, Tibet etc., the teaching language is Mandarin from elementary and secondary schools, to univesities, unless students have foreign languages classes etc.

There're no Hokkien classes for children as I knew. People learn Hokkien from parents, and friends etc.

Mandarin is the sole national wide official language in the mainland of China. We use Mandarin all the time regardless formal or informal situation. It depends on individuals' language inclinations. In my case, I am more comfortable in Mandarin, but I prefer using Hokkien with anyone here to validate my Hokkien root and identity. [/quote]

Sizen wrote: You could maybe read Mandarin with Hokkien pronunciations, like Cantonese speakers often do with their language, but I personally don't know if enough Mandarin characters have standard readings in Hokkien for this to even be done.


Some other people can make it. But I don't, and it would be a bit difficult for me to do that.

If you let me read out a piece of Chinese news in Hokkien, I will probably stutter soon. I have to think in for a while to pronounce some words. I will have to have some mental translation from Mandarin into Hokkien.
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Re: Am I a native speaker of Mandarin?

Postby księżycowy » Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:25 am

Sizen wrote:I went down a Hokkien rabbit hole on YouTube recently, and there was this interesting video that touches on this subject. It sounds like Hokkien used to have a somewhat prolific history of vernacular writing, but for many reasons, like in many other parts of the world, writing in Mandarin has become more common, replacing Literary Chinese as a lingua franca. The impression I get is that Hokkien speakers are in a diglossic situation, with Hokkien being spoken in the appropriate contexts (eg. among other speakers in less formal situations but not exclusively) and Mandarin being used elsewhere, especially in writing and more formal situations. You could maybe read Mandarin with Hokkien pronunciations, like Cantonese speakers often do with their language, but I personally don't know if enough Mandarin characters have standard readings in Hokkien for this to even be done.

From going down this rabbit hole a few years ago, I'd say this is roughly my understanding as well. There are some systems for writing Hokkien in Taiwan (some mixed, some based solely in Chinese characters), but none have truly caught on on the level of Mandarin. The government of Taiwan was (is?) trying to create a unified system, but I'm not sure how that faired or if work is continuing. They were at one point trying to promote Taiwanese Hokkien and reinvigorate it, but again, no idea if efforts are still ongoing.

The situation in the Mainland is much more dire, as can be seen.

I can remember seeing a textbook teaching Taiwanese Hokkien that did teach characters, but as it turned out, the dialogues were written in Standard Mandarin, but presented as spoken Taiwanese. I'm not sure if that is common, or not. From allf's post above, I get the impression that's a mixed bag as well. Probably on both sides of the Strait.
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Re: Am I a native speaker of Mandarin?

Postby rdearman » Sun Mar 26, 2023 10:00 am

I suspect that there are many people in Singapore in the same boat. Hokkien makes up almost half of the ethnic Chinese group in Singapore, and I know many people speak Hokkien, but education is in Mandarin (and English, Malay, and Tamil)
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