What advice do you give to people IRL when language learning comes up?

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sirgregory
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What advice do you give to people IRL when language learning comes up?

Postby sirgregory » Thu Mar 02, 2023 12:50 am

Have you ever had people in real life/offline ask you for advice about how to learn a language? When this comes up do you just recommend the materials and methods that you actually use? Or do you tend to simplify things and/or tailor your recommendations to the person you are talking to? I had this come up recently (my brother wants to learn Spanish) and I noticed that I ended up recommending things that aren't necessarily what I would do myself.

I tend to recommend Pimsleur to people IRL even though I probably lean more toward Assimil (and other things with pure target language audio). One reason I don't usually mention Assimil IRL is that it's not marketed much in the US and most people have never heard of it (you can get it on Amazon but only from 3rd party sellers and the product listings can be confusing and are often overpriced). It's also not entirely obvious how to use it effectively whereas Pimsleur is nearly fool-proof. It works (at least to a point) even if you have no idea what you're doing. And that early progress is so important because that gives people encouragement to keep going. More generally I would wager that the average person will get much better results from a formatted audio program than from a textbook or similar. (I haven't tried Michel Thomas yet, but that would be another formatted audio program that also seems fairly fool-proof.) In one of Arguelles's critiques of Pimsleur he said something to the effect that Pimsleur is "effective but not efficient." By this he meant that it works, but other resources have more target language text, more vocabulary, more continuous audio without the English interruptions, all of which in theory should get you further. I think he's right about that but "effective but not efficient" is probably a good trade-off for a lot of people. A highly efficient program won't do you much good if you can't realize those theoretical benefits.

On grammar, I am generally pro-grammar, but realistically it's probably more of a hindrance for people who don't have a good grounding in elementary grammatical concepts (like the parts of speech). Most beginners probably won't fare very well trying to self-study with a grammar-heavy book.

The most popular resource by far that I've heard people bring up is Duolingo (and maybe Rosetta Stone). I don't try to talk people out of using Duo since I've used it some myself and I figure that on average people probably get more results from it than with a "better" program that they're unlikely to actually use. But I feel like Duo is sort of a trap in that they try to string you along indefinitely when you'd be much better off moving on to other material after a month or two. If people bring it up I usually just say it's good "for getting started." My brother was going to get Rosetta Stone and I steered him away from it (perhaps unfairly since I've never actually tried it). If someone has already purchased something and they have faith in it, I try not to discourage them or make them second-guess their choice.

If someone is focused on learning one specific language, I usually don't mention anything at all about the online language learning scene. While there is a lot of valuable info out there, I worry that there is too much contradictory opinion and that it's a rabbit hole that is likely to be a distraction and time waster. If you go on YouTube and start watching videos in English about generic language learning/"polyglot" tips, most likely that will 1) waste time, 2) cause you to jump from thing to thing every time you hear a hot new idea. A corollary to this is that you are probably better off looking for stuff specific to the language you are studying, not generic language learning philosophy which imo is really only useful if you are taking up languages as a major hobby and plan on studying several of them. In that case, doing a little more research and experimentation to get your methods really dialed in probably makes some sense.

Anyway, that was probably too long. But I was just curious if anyone else has thought about this and if the IRL advice might differ from the advice given here on the forum which might be geared more to "language nerds."
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Re: What advice do you give to people IRL when language learning comes up?

Postby Axon » Thu Mar 02, 2023 8:16 am

I also recommend Pimsleur to people looking for a low-stress resource. I've had people take me up on it and they end up retaining a good amount. It was also recommended to me by a professor of mine whose wife (also a professor) had learned Vietnamese for her research. My professor had used Pimsleur to pick up enough conversational Vietnamese to get by when he went with her as she did some fieldwork, and I'm pretty sure that was in the era of cassettes.

If I only have enough time with the person to recommend one concrete thing before any more advice is "too much," it's Pimsleur. But if the person seems genuinely interested in how to learn, I give them a quick set of points: Keep Pimsleur as a main track pushing you forward as you explore other things. Check out YouTube videos with subtitles (Easy Languages) and don't worry if you don't understand, just watch them and rewatch the ones that you think are interesting. Try out Pod101, lots of the lessons are free on YouTube. Try out a Comprehensible Input video series on YouTube. (I basically always recommend Pimsleur and YouTube.)

Depending on the language, I probably know a good grammar reference that I can recommend specifically. I think grammar does require consistent, focused study, and someone who doesn't know any related languages is going to hit a wall quickly when they want to say something if they don't know how the grammar works. Talking about grammar and vocabulary learning techniques is definitely something I feel doesn't belong in a quick chat about language learning. If I get to that stage with someone, I'd probably point them toward Refold as an easy-to-understand comprehensive source for guiding a new learner through language learning.
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Re: What advice do you give to people IRL when language learning comes up?

Postby philomath » Thu Mar 02, 2023 1:51 pm

I have a lot of trouble with this. A couple of months ago, my grandma asked me for advice on learning Spanish before a trip to Latin America. I panicked and recommended Duolingo, and then I regretted it because I really don’t think Duolingo is a good resource for people completely new to language-learning. Pimsleur is an option but it gets tedious and what if they want to learn a more difficult language like Russian? I tried Pimsleur Ukrainian once, without knowing anything about the language, and felt completely overwhelmed.

Here in Boston, our library gives us access to an app called Mango Languages. I’d probably recommend that and then suggest watching easy YouTube videos. But I’d also add the advice that the best way to learn a language is whatever makes them feel motivated!
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Re: What advice do you give to people IRL when language learning comes up?

Postby rowanexer » Thu Mar 02, 2023 2:02 pm

I've also recommend Pimsleur and Michel Thomas to inexperienced language learners. It's been sort of successful? My brother, who is a pretty disciplined person, learnt Spanish to B1 level starting with those resources. After finishing he asked for further recommendations and I suggested Assimil (which was a success) and FSI (which was not).

Otherwise for some people I think they really needed a personal tutor, because they lacked the skills or discipline for learning.

I have had someone who seemed to really balk at the active work required with Pimsleur and MT. They have instead continued to just use Duolingo 10 mins a day for a whole year with not much progress. Thinking about it now, maybe Coffee Break Spanish would work with them? But I don't have much hope.

I think a lot of people like the idea of knowing a language, but don't want to put any work into it. So they try one lesson or don't even try, and then just carry on with their lives.
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Re: What advice do you give to people IRL when language learning comes up?

Postby garyb » Thu Mar 02, 2023 2:05 pm

Usually along the lines of "DuoLingo is good for extra practice but you need to use other resources too if you're serious about learning it", but in most cases the person then admits that they're not really serious, are already quite aware that Duo has its limitations, and are happy just playing with it and making very slow progress. Which I can't really fault.

However I do think it's always good to challenge the belief that immersion is necessary and sufficient, and that if they do decide to get serious at some point then it's possible without living in the country.
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Re: What advice do you give to people IRL when language learning comes up?

Postby iguanamon » Thu Mar 02, 2023 2:26 pm

If people ask me what to use to learn a language, I give the same advice as I do here. Of course, they ignore it and do what they want... just like people here do. What do I know?!
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Re: What advice do you give to people IRL when language learning comes up?

Postby Irena » Thu Mar 02, 2023 2:37 pm

People don't really ask me for advice. However, I've be praising Italki to high heaven to a friend, and now she's taking lessons on a competing platform. :lol: Well, I wasn't trying to promote Italki in particular, just the opportunity to take lessons over Skype. The friend seems to be making progress. :D
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Re: What advice do you give to people IRL when language learning comes up?

Postby gsbod » Thu Mar 02, 2023 3:14 pm

It's a difficult one isn't it? I'm much more confident if people are asking advice on something specific - like a friend recently realised they'd reached the limit of what Duolingo could give them and wanted some help getting to grips with certain aspects of German grammar. That was an enjoyable conversation :lol:

One thing I have learned from this forum is that there is a plurality of ways to learn a language, and so I'm also very conscious that what suits me is not necessarily going to suit other people. Also there's the fact that I've been self studying languages for the best part of 15 years now, with some degree of success, which means that I simply don't think about languages in the same way as an adult beginner/adult who learned French at school. So for example, some of my favourite resources are in the target language only, which I am happy to deal with as a beginner as long as I have access to a decent (preferably online) dictionary. But I can see that these wouldn't be suitable for most complete beginners with no experience of learning languages on their own. I've also noticed more recently that I cope a lot better with listening to languages at a beginner (A1-A2) level than other people at the same level with less language learning experience. Basically, my experience with languages over the years has made me better at listening comprehension in general, and I don't think there's any way of turning this fact into useful advice for anyone else.

Really the only thing I try to stress is that, in my experience, whatever you do, progress is proportionate to the amount of effort you make. Something I also have to remind myself of, from time to time.
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Re: What advice do you give to people IRL when language learning comes up?

Postby sirgregory » Thu Mar 02, 2023 11:29 pm

philomath wrote:I have a lot of trouble with this. A couple of months ago, my grandma asked me for advice on learning Spanish before a trip to Latin America. I panicked and recommended Duolingo, and then I regretted it because I really don’t think Duolingo is a good resource for people completely new to language-learning. Pimsleur is an option but it gets tedious and what if they want to learn a more difficult language like Russian? I tried Pimsleur Ukrainian once, without knowing anything about the language, and felt completely overwhelmed.

Here in Boston, our library gives us access to an app called Mango Languages. I’d probably recommend that and then suggest watching easy YouTube videos. But I’d also add the advice that the best way to learn a language is whatever makes them feel motivated!


Now that you mention it, a long time ago I did a couple of Pimsleur Russian lessons out of curiosity. I went in cold without any other sort of study and I found it to be rough going. Hard pronuniciation, few cognates, unfamiliar grammar. All of that makes the phrases much harder to remember. You're going to need more reps for Здравствуйте than for hola. I don't know if Pimsleur adjusts the intervals for this or not. With some of the words I had trouble hearing the sounds correctly and would have needed more explicit instructions on the phonology. With Pimsleur French (my main experience with Pimsleur) I didn't have much trouble, even though French pronunciation is also somewhat tricky.
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Re: What advice do you give to people IRL when language learning comes up?

Postby Lawyer&Mom » Fri Mar 03, 2023 1:08 am

I’m constantly telling other parents to put their kids in front of dubbed cartoons. It works amazingly well for languages close to English. I’m pretty sure they don’t believe me.
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