What advice do you give to people IRL when language learning comes up?

[BeaP]

Maybe I needed a better textbook or program to work with.

I think this is the most important aspect. With a good basic training and a good program (that also has supplementary materials for the different needs of the students) a lot of teachers could provide students with the necessary support. When I was at high school, I remember I was thinking that most teachers were overcomplicating things. A lot of communicative textbooks were at least OK, some of them were excellent. A teacher who didn't do more, just choose a good one, read the teacher's book and make kids do the exercises was a rare gem. This minimalistic approach might not be the most efficient, but at least it can take good students to B2 in 4 years, which is a lot better than what is usually happening in a lot of schools.

On the original topic: No-one has ever asked advice from me on language learning IRL. On the other hand, I've been given a lot of unsolicited advice by people who speak one language badly. I agree with Cavesa, everyone is looking for confirmation, so when this topic comes up in a conversation (it's rare), nowadays I just listen. People think that my views are strange, hard to understand and uncomfortable. Since my kids talked about our plans to move to Italy in the school, we've been constantly scared off that we won't be able to tackle with the language. I don't even start the discussion. I'm not Don Quijote.

[Irena]

Maybe I needed a better textbook or program to work with.

I think this is the most important aspect. With a good basic training and a good program (that also has supplementary materials for the different needs of the students) a lot of teachers could provide students with the necessary support.

Yes, I agree. I think that the curriculum and textbook/workbook generally matter more than the teacher, at least at the beginner/intermediate level. Yes, of course, a terrible teacher can ruin a good curriculum. However, a basically-competent/nothing-special teacher can get quite good results if the curriculum and textbook/workbook are solid. But even a stellar teacher cannot rescue a really bad curriculum. Of course, the teacher might choose to ignore the bad curriculum and come up with something else, but it's really hard to make a whole new curriculum on the fly. Besides, the school might not tolerate it.

[Cavesa]

But you are still missing the issue. The people who "didn't need" to learn the local language were not an asset to the local society, never were a part of it. They were just profiting from it, and morally failing, and they should have been deported. No clue how many times you need to be explained such a simple truth to actually understand. Completely detached parallel societies are a huge problem.

Actually, that's just your opinion. They got a job in those countries, they got the visas, and they provided their labor while there. One of the best language teachers I've ever had spent a couple of years living in my country and teaching there. Then she left. She didn't learn Serbian, but she says she improved her English while there. And I say good for her! Her students were lucky to have her. (She taught me over Skype when she had already left, but that's not the point.)

But your argument isn't really with me. If you feel so strongly about this, then why don't you take it up with your elected representatives and make your feelings known? If enough of your compatriots feel the same way, then changes can be made. And if not? Well, it's a democracy, isn't it?

No, but why do you keep derailing a thread? Do you lack the capacity to understand normal arguments? Or to just accept disagreement?

There is no point in reexplaining stuff you. If you put in the effort and think about it, you are quite likely to understand better, whether or not you agree.

That English teacher you are talking about was just abusing her privilege and clearly didn't value the country, where she was earning money. No clue why you insist on this being right. If you cannot agree, it is ok, but there is no point in you trying to convince me that anglophone expats are übermensch. They are not and shouldn't be treated as such.

Yeah, democracy has many advantages and some flaws. Such as this. Some problems do not get solved. My "opinion" as you say, is clearly not just mine. The parallel cultures are a huge problem, you can read a lot on the topic in other places than this forum.

I would love to stick to the thread. Please, respect the forum rules. Stick to the topic, do not be disrespectful, and so on. Don't let your envy towards me make you appear as a much worse person, than you probably are.

[Irena]

That English teacher you are talking about was just abusing her privilege and clearly didn't value the country, where she was earning money. No clue why you insist on this being right. If you cannot agree, it is ok, but there is no point in you trying to convince me that anglophone expats are übermensch. They are not and shouldn't be treated as such.

She wasn't an English teacher. Different language. (Did you read what I wrote? She said she improved her own English. Of course she did. She was using English to communicate with the locals, while teaching a different language.) And who are you to say she was abusing her privilege? I say she was making the country more competitive by providing her services while she was there.

I would love to stick to the thread. Please, respect the forum rules. Stick to the topic, do not be disrespectful, and so on. Don't let your envy towards me make you appear as a much worse person, than you probably are.

Projection, much?

[Cavesa]

That English teacher you are talking about was just abusing her privilege and clearly didn't value the country, where she was earning money. No clue why you insist on this being right. If you cannot agree, it is ok, but there is no point in you trying to convince me that anglophone expats are übermensch. They are not and shouldn't be treated as such.

She wasn't an English teacher. Different language. (Did you read what I wrote? She said she improved her own English. Of course she did. She was using English to communicate with the locals, while teaching a different language.) And who are you to say she was abusing her privilege? I say she was making the country more competitive by providing her services while she was there.

My apologies in this case, I mistook her for that other example of yours (the expat teaching without English before going to law school)

But really, if she improved her English in Serbia, it shows even more the extent of the problem. As an immigrant, she was supposed to interact with the locals in the local language. Yet, she was clearly not trying to integrate, she was openly disrespecting the country many times a day. Serbs were good enough to her to take their money, but not enough to really live among them. So sad the Serbs around her tolerated it instead of having some healthy self-confidence and feeling equal to a random expat.

Who am I? Someone without such a privilege, who has had to earn the better life and future. A clear asset to the society and someone integrating and speaking the local language anywhere I live. So, no wonder I find it a bit hard to understand that you, someone supposedly in a similar situation than me, are so obsessed with defense of the privileged and disrespectful people getting just advantages without the sacrifices.

No clue what happened to you, that you show such servility towards them.

I would love to stick to the thread. Please, respect the forum rules. Stick to the topic, do not be disrespectful, and so on. Don't let your envy towards me make you appear as a much worse person, than you probably are.

Projection, much?

Not really. Just reread the forum rules, and be respectful. You are the one derailing the thread (not for the first time) and using personal attacks (not for the first time either). Just stop it.

I am out of this thread. I really hope your bad behaviour and unfortunate tendency to derail every thread won't make more threads unpleasant for me. Or to others actually sticking to the topic and having something to say. Far too many posts are filled with just your nonsense that has nothing to do with the thread and you clearly try to stir conflict and revive stuff from other threads.

[Chung]

Have you ever had people in real life/offline ask you for advice about how to learn a language? When this comes up do you just recommend the materials and methods that you actually use? Or do you tend to simplify things and/or tailor your recommendations to the person you are talking to? I had this come up recently (my brother wants to learn Spanish) and I noticed that I ended up recommending things that aren't necessarily what I would do myself.

I've more frequently been asked how I learned some language.

Whenever I have been asked IRL (very infrequently as has been the case), I've given general advice about the need to work on that language and/or get exposed to it frequently and long enough while not (initially) pushing classes or self-instruction unless I become sure about the inquirer's intentions or preferences. As such, I don't make suggestions for specific textbooks or related material unless asked directly about them, although I've found myself disparaging Duolingo as others have told me about it or asked me whether I've used it.

For anyone interested, I have dispensed free advice on how to get going independently in Finnish, Hungarian and Slovak.

[Cainntear]

Regardless, taking negative statements as effectively proof of a personal failing isn't particularly helpful.

It's not a "negative" statement.

It is a negative statement.

It's an aggressively disparaging and rude statement.

That is also quite probably true. It does not make my statement false.

Saying that something that is disparaging and rude is not "negative" is very much untrue -- it's like saying "That's not a 'word' -- it's an insult," which ignores the fact that insults are words too.

What you have done here is absolutely the internet's "thing": you are rejecting the existence of hierarchies of taxonomy: all rude statements are negative.

When people choose to express themselves in that manner, then no, it's not going to inspire me to find out where they're coming from. I am not a psychiatrist after all.

This is a discussion forum, not so-called social media. Here, people with different opinions discuss things and generally show tolerance towards people they think are wrong.
The reason I say this isn't social media is that people there are prone to simplify "I don't share your opinion" to "WRONG!!!" and to therefore conclude that everyone who disagrees with them is irreconcilably evil.

This is a massive problem.

[Irena]

But really, if she improved her English in Serbia, it shows even more the extent of the problem. As an immigrant, she was supposed to interact with the locals in the local language. Yet, she was clearly not trying to integrate, she was openly disrespecting the country many times a day. Serbs were good enough to her to take their money, but not enough to really live among them. So sad the Serbs around her tolerated it instead of having some healthy self-confidence and feeling equal to a random expat.

First of all, she wasn't an immigrant. If you move somewhere for just a couple of years, with no intention of staying, then you're a visitor, not an immigrant. Second of all, Serbian is a language that's very useful if you happen to live in certain parts of former Yugoslavia. Otherwise, it's largely useless. (Though of course, one can choose to learn it anyway, if one happens to have a strong interest in the culture, or perhaps in something like Slavic linguistics. I have nothing at all against niche interests.) It's similar to Czech in that regard. If I'd moved to the Czech Republic with the intention of only spending a year or two in the country, I wouldn't have bothered learning Czech either. Instead, it so happens that I moved here with the intention of spending the rest of my life here, and I acted accordingly. (Whether I'll actually end up spending the rest of my life here is obviously unknowable, but it doesn't really matter. That was the intention. And that was not my teacher's intention.)

Who am I? Someone without such a privilege, who has had to earn the better life and future. A clear asset to the society and someone integrating and speaking the local language anywhere I live. So, no wonder I find it a bit hard to understand that you, someone supposedly in a similar situation than me, are so obsessed with defense of the privileged and disrespectful people getting just advantages without the sacrifices.

I don't want to go into details, but assuming you were born and raised in the Czech Republic, and assuming you didn't suffer any serious deprivation in childhood or youth (not being able to go on a vacation does not count), it's pretty safe to say you're a lot more privileged than my teacher ever was. I don't think you quite realize just how well off Czechs are, relatively speaking.

[Irena]

Regardless, taking negative statements as effectively proof of a personal failing isn't particularly helpful.

It's not a "negative" statement.

It is a negative statement.

It's an aggressively disparaging and rude statement.

That is also quite probably true. It does not make my statement false.

This is technically correct, but it misses the point. The point is that saying something negative is perfectly fine, even if I may disagree. Aggressively disparaging and rude statements, on the other hand, are not fine.

This is a discussion forum, not so-called social media. Here, people with different opinions discuss things and generally show tolerance towards people they think are wrong.

And that's exactly what Cavesa does not do. Anyone who disagrees with her is an idiot and maybe even immoral.

[Irena]

I am out of this thread. I really hope your bad behaviour and unfortunate tendency to derail every thread won't make more threads unpleasant for me. Or to others actually sticking to the topic and having something to say. Far too many posts are filled with just your nonsense that has nothing to do with the thread and you clearly try to stir conflict and revive stuff from other threads.

You want to be able to call people morons, call people immoral, make all sorts of sweeping statements, and you want everyone else to just nod as if what you were saying were manifestly true. But it actually isn't.