Moved to Mexico and started learning Spanish. Need advice.

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Kullman
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Re: Moved to Mexico and started learning Spanish. Need advice.

Postby Kullman » Wed Dec 21, 2022 12:31 am

piotr wrote:HOWEVER, your argument is weak and misleading. :?


Let me be clear... I have a schoolmate who is from Venezuela, and he has been living in Spain for the last 10 months... not even a year, and we never had any problem to understand each other... The only issue you could find understanding a venezuelan is because of their fast speaking, but not by the language itself, which is pretty similar to the spanish spoken in the Canary Islands.

You have assumed than my experience with native speakers is only with people who have spent years in Spain, and you are wrong... I have been speaking with people from other spanish countries for 20 years via skype (Argentina, Uruguay, Venezuela, Perú, Colombia, Cuba, ...), and even if some words are used different (the meaning of coger, by example), I never had any problem to understand them, and neither them with me.

I really don't know how much experience do you have about Spain, but I'm pretty sure I have a little more than you (living here for 45 years), and we rarely use the word "sudamericano" cause we prefer "latinoamericano", which is a more universal term, and we know perfectly than México is in "Norteamerica", and than Panama is in "Centroamerica".

If you can't distinguish between a galician accent and a sevillan accent, then there is someting wrong with your hearing, and maybe you should find an otorhinolaryngologist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-70aIw4THc

I can understand than not native speakers like you have some issues with some accents and local terms, but I have never found any native spanish speakers which I couldn't understand...
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Re: Moved to Mexico and started learning Spanish. Need advice.

Postby Paul_Moechner2022 » Wed Dec 21, 2022 1:05 am

Thank you all for the responses! I learned a lot in this thread. I find it fascinating to learn that how spanish is spoken in different parts in Mexico is just as diverse as how english is spoken in different parts of the USA. I just finished memorizing the spanish alphabet and now working on the phonetics.

It looks like my approach is going to be pretty much the same that many of my friends I grew up with who were from a mixture of countries, which was pick a dialect, learn it as best I can, and then adapt as I interact with my friends and neighbors and watch TV/movies in spanish. For all I know, that's how learning a new language is supposed to work haha. I switched my internet browsers to spanish also to help me out as well, so even when I'm browsing facebook, youtube, etc I'm forced to figure out what links are saying which is helping. :)
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Re: Moved to Mexico and started learning Spanish. Need advice.

Postby tractor » Wed Dec 21, 2022 1:17 am

I find it hard to disagree with a lot of what Piotr says, but if we try to answer the original post, I think he's making things unnecessary complicated, and I think he's somewhat exaggerating the differences between Spanish dialects.

As foreign language learners we usually learn a variant of the standard language, and if we move to a place here the language is spoken, we'll most likely pick up some features of the local dialect.

Standard Spanish is basically Standard Spanish, and is understood throughout the Spanish speaking world, wether spoken with a European, Mexican or Argentinian accent. Spanish, like most languages, has several dialects. There are of course words and expressions that are not universally understood, but we all adapt, consciously or unconsciously, when we speak to other people, so most of the time they won't pose a problem.
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Re: Moved to Mexico and started learning Spanish. Need advice.

Postby iguanamon » Wed Dec 21, 2022 2:33 am

tractor wrote:...As foreign language learners we usually learn a variant of the standard language, and if we move to a place (w)here the language is spoken, we'll most likely pick up some features of the local dialect ....

Well said, tractor. It is easier to adapt one's Spanish after learning basic, standard Spanish. I sometimes mess up and call an orange a "china" or the "autobús"- "la guagua" in countries where this is not used... just like I'd ask where the elevator was, when I lived in England- people knew I was American as soon as I started speaking. Still, to this day, despite over a decade living in the Caribbean, I say "mande" when I need someone to repeat something... no problem. I am an obvious Anglo who is speaking Spanish, people cut me slack, generally. I didn't have any issues in Argentina a couple of months ago.

If one is living in a specific country, sure, it's a good idea to adapt one's pronunciation and usage to whatever the local variety may be... up to a point. Knowing the basic language is like having a good foundation upon which one can be creative when the situation calls for it.
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Re: Moved to Mexico and started learning Spanish. Need advice.

Postby piotr » Wed Dec 21, 2022 3:54 am

Kullman wrote:Let me be clear... I have a schoolmate who is from Venezuela, and he has been living in Spain for the last 10 months... not even a year, and we never had any problem to understand each other... The only issue you could find understanding a venezuelan is because of their fast speaking, but not by the language itself, which is pretty similar to the spanish spoken in the Canary Islands.

My friend from Venezuela reported lots of problems to understand and to be understood by locals during the first several months living in Spain, so I know what I'm talking about.

I've been to the Canary Islands and my personal impression was that the speech differed from that of Venezuela but without a thorough analysis these are just impressions of a traveller. Also, there is a variety of Venezuelan accents, so what exactly are we talking about? Some of them are essentially shared with eastern Colombia.

Kullman wrote:I really don't know how much experience do you have about Spain, but I'm pretty sure I have a little more than you (living here for 45 years), and we rarely use the word "sudamericano" cause we prefer "latinoamericano", which is a more universal term, and we know perfectly than México is in "Norteamerica", and than Panama is in "Centroamerica".

And of course, you never call Mexicans "sudacos". :roll:

By the way, for example in Colombia the typical word for "South American" is "suRamericano" rather than "suDamericano". I've never said the differences between dialects are large--they are small but numerous, everywhere.

Kullman wrote:If you can't distinguish between a galician accent and a sevillan accent, then there is someting wrong with your hearing, and maybe you should find an otorhinolaryngologist.

If I couldn't hear any difference between the Galician accent and the Sevillan accent, my Spanish listening skills would be poor, and quite possibly I wouldn't understand much of the speech in Spain.

Kullman wrote:I can understand than not native speakers like you have some issues with some accents and local terms, but I have never found any native spanish speakers which I couldn't understand...

How can I comment on this? You're not taking me seriously as I wasn't physically born in a Spanish-speaking country. Physically, I was born in Poland and my mother tongue is widely considered one of the most dialectally homogeneous among European languages. And nevertheless I'm unable to understand so many terms used in Podahle, Śląsk, Kaszuby, and other parts of the country I was born in...

Are you Spaniards some kind of geniuses or rather, you're exaggerating a little bit :?:

tractor wrote:I find it hard to disagree with a lot of what Piotr says, but if we try to answer the original post, I think he's making things unnecessary complicated, and I think he's somewhat exaggerating the differences between Spanish dialects.

Why exaggerating? From the beginning I talk about an accumulation of rather minute differences. And I've repeated multiple times that everything "DEPENDS" on the definitions, the exact type of speech, particular type of communicative situation, and so on.
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Re: Moved to Mexico and started learning Spanish. Need advice.

Postby Kullman » Wed Dec 21, 2022 1:23 pm

Maybe your friend from Venezuela isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. I don't know...

I have several venezuelan friends (one from Maracaibo, another from Valencia, ...), and the biggest issue adapting to Galicia was the weather... none of them expressed any issues about the language, but usually complained about the rain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KE2imweWUBI

"Sudaca" (not sudaco) is an archaic racist term, which refer to latinamericans and was used more than 30 years ago, and it never had a broad use, as you imply.

In fact, "panchito" is now the usual term to refer to latinamericans in a pejorative way, only a few people use it, and I'm not among them.

About the accent of the canary islands, and the similarities with the caribbean accents.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOAN2hKzvXk

No, I'm not exaggerating at all, when speaking with people from other spanish countries, I might need to ask them to speak a bit slower, and some words will sound strange to me, but I have never encountered a spanish speaker who I can't communicate with.
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Re: Moved to Mexico and started learning Spanish. Need advice.

Postby piotr » Wed Dec 21, 2022 2:54 pm

Studying linguistics from YouTube videos of this kind is strange but YouTube can be useful. I used to either read papers from linguistic journals or analyse phonetics and morphosyntax by myself.

Kullman wrote:"Sudaca" (not sudaco) is an archaic racist term, which refer to latinamericans and was used more than 30 years ago, and it never had a broad use, as you imply.

My hears are not that old and I've heard it... but OK. Let's leave it. ;) I can be wrong about the exact form--I don't speak the Spanish of Spain, so thank you. :D

Kullman wrote:In fact, "panchito" is now the usual term to refer to latinamericans in a pejorative way, only a few people use it, and I'm not among them.
Only few people in Spain are racists but one of my first contacts with the speech of Spain was people telling me no to talk like South Americans. And this have repeated just too many times. :roll: I've never in my life been told by a Cuban or a Mexican my Spanish was wrong because of being Colombian. At times, only Peruvians get irritated by my Colombian but there are also Peruvians who say they like how Colombians talk.

Kullman wrote:About the accent of the canary islands, and the similarities with the caribbean accents.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOAN2hKzvXk

Thank you! But, this doesn't sound any Venezuelan to me! :? This sounds European Spanish. :lol:

Kullman wrote:No, I'm not exaggerating at all, when speaking with people from other spanish countries, I might need to ask them to speak a bit slower, and some words will sound strange to me, but I have never encountered a spanish speaker who I can't communicate with.

When I talk to Colombians I DON'T need to ask them to speak any slower... You ask people to speak slower because you can't understand them the way they naturally express themselves. You and me possible define or interpret things differently... And this is the reason of our misunderstanding. ;)

tractor wrote:As foreign language learners we usually learn a variant of the standard language, and if we move to a place here the language is spoken, we'll most likely pick up some features of the local dialect.

Standard Spanish is basically Standard Spanish, and is understood throughout the Spanish speaking world, wether spoken with a European, Mexican or Argentinian accent. Spanish, like most languages, has several dialects. There are of course words and expressions that are not universally understood, but we all adapt, consciously or unconsciously, when we speak to other people, so most of the time they won't pose a problem.

I was thinking of your post. I'm not really sure what that "Standard Spanish" is. People in Poland (and possibly in the whole Europe) are taught the Spanish of northern (or central depending on the definitions) Spain and are said this is the "standard". Whereas, many US Americans study Mexican Spanish. I'm not sure about Canadians... I, myself, have learnt Colombian. And I've never cared of speaking a "standard"--I simply speak the way Colombians speak...

I rather rarely communicate in Spanish with non-Colombians. Although there actually were periods in my life I talked or communicated quite much with e.g., Peruvians, Equatorials, Cubans or Mexicans. And when this happens, I modify my Spanish. I wouldn't try to pronounce Spanish a non-Colombian way as it might sound like a parody... ;) A Colombian trying to sound like Mexicans or Spaniards? I don't think this would make a positive impression... :lol: But I do actually restrict my vocabulary as my contacts taught me that there are things non-Colombians do not understand, so what's the point of using a word I know my interlocutor is unlikely to understand...?

Because Paul lives in Mexico, to me it is just logical he needs Mexican Spanish. But also, as I explicitly said in my first post in this thread:
piotr wrote:On one hand, I'd say that the dialect used in a course doesn't really matter. Even if your initial course teaches the Spanish of e.g. Spain, if you live in Mexico, in the long run it's simply improbable that you learn non-Mexican pronunciation, vocabulary or grammar.
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Re: Moved to Mexico and started learning Spanish. Need advice.

Postby tractor » Wed Dec 21, 2022 5:37 pm

By Standard Spanish I mean Spanish as it is taught in schools throughout the Spanish speaking world, so a rather broad norm and a rather loose term.

If somebody is living in Mexico, the most sensible thing to do is to learn Mexican Spanish. Mexico is the most populous Spanish speaking country (not counting the US among them), and there's an endless amount of language learning materials based on Mexican Spanish.
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Re: Moved to Mexico and started learning Spanish. Need advice.

Postby piotr » Wed Dec 21, 2022 6:31 pm

tractor wrote:By Standard Spanish I mean Spanish as it is taught in schools throughout the Spanish speaking world, so a rather broad norm and a rather loose term.

If somebody is living in Mexico, the most sensible thing to do is to learn Mexican Spanish. Mexico is the most populous Spanish speaking country (not counting the US among them), and there's an endless amount of language learning materials based on Mexican Spanish.

I never studied Spanish in school... Not even a single lesson. :oops:

Also, when I started to learn Spanish, the Internet was primitive and I had a limited access to it. When I first time used YouTube, I already could speak Spanish. I wouldn't be able to recommend any learning materials on YouTube. I just imagine there should be pretty numerous learning materials for Mexican Spanish produced in the USA, books or something.

EDIT: I've just remembered that the YouTube actually existed but I couldn't use it at home because of the speed or download size. Part of my early recordings of the Spanish Language were from YouTube but downloaded in an Internet café. Never mind. The point is that I can't recommend anything from YouTube.

EDIT 2: It seems that YouTube was founded on February 14, 2005; and I've been studying Spanish for 15 years.
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Re: Moved to Mexico and started learning Spanish. Need advice.

Postby Kullman » Wed Dec 21, 2022 8:59 pm

piotr wrote:When I talk to Colombians I DON'T need to ask them to speak any slower... You ask people to speak slower because you can't understand them the way they naturally express themselves. You and me possible define or interpret things differently... And this is the reason of our misunderstanding. ;)


If I speak to you as fast as I usually speak, even if I don't use any term you wouldn't know, you will be unable to follow me... There is a difference between understanding someone, and following the train of conversation.

The narrator of that documentary about the canary islands, which you say sound european spanish, is actually cuban, and he doesn't live in the Canary Islands... LoL.

And I think that concludes this argument, as it seems than your ear isn't as sharp as you think it is...

Current football (soccer for the americans) mexican national team manager, Gerardo "Tata" Martino is an argentinian, and he never coached in Mexico before. As he doesn't need a translator in the press conferences, I think mexicans understand the argentinian/uruguayan accent just fine....
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