"Restarting" Spanish - Not Sure What To Do

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FeoGringo
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"Restarting" Spanish - Not Sure What To Do

Postby FeoGringo » Sun Nov 06, 2022 2:54 am

Apologies in advance for what might be a very long post but I'd really like input and advice from the community. I've been lazily "studying" Spanish for almost three years without much to show for it and I feel like I've wasted a lot of time. I've read that language learning should really be measured in hours and not months or years. In that sense hours logged is probably pitiful. I have not tracked my hours but I know it is not a lot.

My approach was very haphazard. Watching shows on Netflix, youtubers, listening to podcasts, looking up things, texting Spanish speaking friends, some subs2srs work. A few lessons of Language Transfer. Looking up a bit of grammar. Some radioambulante here and there and some transcribing of audio segments of Netflix shows.

I have made progress. I know that there is a difference between where I started (essentially from zero) and where I am now. High level listening has been my primary goal with a secondary goal of speaking well with a non-gringo accent - if native speakers aren't sure where I'm from I guess that would be a win.

Current Abilities
Writing: almost non-existent except for texting with a couple native speaking friends, writing is not a language learning goal at this time

Reading: My reading is poor, other than reading subtitles or podcast transcripts, it is not something I have put much effort into

Listening: This has been my main focus for the past 2+ years.
Just for some concrete reference point, I listened to the first Audio Tarea for the B2 and C1 levels from this DELE Practice website https://examenes.cervantes.es/es/dele/preparar-prueba and I'd say I had 98% understanding on the B2 audio and 95% on the C1 audio. Of course I didn't answer any of the questions (maybe I should do them?) accompanying the audio. But anyway that is my self-assessment of my comprehension for the two practice audio clips. I don't really care about saying I'm at XYZ level, only that it seems to be a helpful marker to communicate level of ability.

I have sampled audio from different units of FSI Basic and I have no problems understanding any of the clips that I sampled.

In the real world, I have to ask people to repeat themselves (part of me thinks I might have some hearing loss but hasn't been confirmed with testing). At work I understand responses and am able to speak on a very narrow scope of topics related to work. But regular on the fly conversations are difficult for me to understand. Native media is hit or miss, often depending on accent, but sometimes my comprehension varies between shows for no reason that I can really identify. For example Netflix shows without subtitles - I'm getting the gist of most things with some shows and the very occasional show I'm really able to follow along pretty well but it's usually for brief periods of time. Another example would be RadioAmbulante where the occasional episode I have great comprehension of sections, sometimes for a long duration of time and other episodes I am lost for the majority of the episode. I'm not sure how much of the lack of comprehension is due to a lack of vocab versus different accents.

Speaking: I can say some pre-scripted things and, as mentioned above, it is mostly work related. I can operate in that very narrow area without much difficulty. Spontaneous speech is a train wreck but I have not really actively worked on output.

Pitfalls
1.) Too much time spent on these forums and reddit reading about language learning or watching youtube videos about language learning. Not enough time spent doing.

2.) Being overly concerned about accent and pronunciation to the point that I think it has made me hesitant to actually delve into some tried and true resources that require you to actually open your mouth and speak.

3.) Possibly holding on too long to the Refold idea of getting your listening to a very high level before starting to output.

4.) Lack of consistency. Not even consistently achieving a bare minimum (whether it's one Language Transfer episode a day, or an hour of a Netflix show).

Solutions
I am writing to ask for advice and suggestions from the members on here who either have been where I am, or maybe had the fortune of not being in my shoes. Either way, I know there is wisdom to be shared. But it would be crummy of me to not give you my own thoughts on where I should go from here.

I guess the following are the ideas I am currently mulling over.

Pronunciation
I think I should make a concerted effort to nail down pronunciation. But the question is how. There are many ways to approach it.

1.) Nail down every individual phoneme first? (I can't do an alveolar trill to save my life and not sure I'll ever get there). Then do letter combinations. Single words. Then sentences?

2.)Work through one of Ten Minute Spanish's Youtube videos daily? (I think his videos are amazing, just my opinion).

3.) Work through the minimal pairs training of FSI Programmatic and the early units of FSI Basic?

4.) Shadowing or chorusing sentences?

All I know is I need to approach it with the mindset that you're never done working on your pronunciation AND I have to accept I'm not going to fool anyone into thinking I'm a native speaker. I just don't want to sound like a typical gringo, I don't want it to be stressful or effortful for a native speaker to understand what I am saying to them.

Listening
I jumped right into native materials from day one. I am almost worried going into slower/made-for-learner audio and media would hurt my current listening skills. But maybe I need to disabuse myself of that notion. Maybe I need to build up my listening. There are a couple websites (TeachMe123 and SpanishListening) which have graded listeninig clips with transcripts. Maybe I just need to work from beginner to advanced with these (while also continuing to consume native material).

Grammar and Speaking
I need to stop putting off working on outputting due to a fear of fossilizing a bad accent and maybe I just need to jump into FSI Basic. Or do Language Transfer first and actually complete it. Start working with an Italki tutor, just for speaking practice?

At the end of the day, I need to be consistent and mark out a bare minimum that I want to try to do daily to get towards my primary goal of high level listening comprehension and secondary goal of decent speaking ability.

Given this mini-essay and my current level, I am very curious to hear what people here would suggest I do. I think I am overwhelmed by the things I want to do so I appreciate any guidance and suggestions.

Thanks for reading.
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Re: "Restarting" Spanish - Not Sure What To Do

Postby BeaP » Sun Nov 06, 2022 7:51 am

I used to go to buddhist meditations, where we had to sit motionless in one position for hours. Every meditation started with searching for the 'middle-point', where the back is completely straight and doesn't lean to any of the sides. We found this point by swinging from one side to the other, starting from the extremes, and getting the range of motion smaller and smaller. During my language learning journey I was reminded of this many times and understood that it works in a lot of areas in life. No matter how good and well-balanced a programme is, if someone else prescribes for you, you won't follow it in the long run. Stop searching. Swing to the other extreme. Choose one good resource and finish it. Don't do anything else, until you reach the end. After that, think about your experience: what were your weaknesses, what are the things you need to work on. Choose multiple resources and methods to develop these areas and later swing back to the limitations again. If you find it very hard to work deeply on one thing, try to think about it as something temporary.
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Re: "Restarting" Spanish - Not Sure What To Do

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sun Nov 06, 2022 12:43 pm

FeoGringo wrote:My approach was very haphazard.


FeoGringo wrote:1.) Too much time spent on these forums and reddit reading about language learning or watching youtube videos about language learning. Not enough time spent doing


FeoGringo wrote:4.) Lack of consistency. Not even consistently achieving a bare minimum (whether it's one Language Transfer episode a day, or an hour of a Netflix show).


Get into a good routine and stick to it. If you are easily distracted, then allow yourself to be after you've completed your daily learning/study. That way you do what you need to do, but you also get to do what has been preventing you from doing what you need to do because you were doing these things in the wrong order (and the wrong amounts).

FeoGringo wrote:I've read that language learning should really be measured in hours and not months or years.


Well if you do 15 hours study in one year, it's not much of a year, right? If you did 15 hours in one month, it's something, not bad, not awesome, but reasonable nonetheless. However, if you studied for 15 hours in a week, then you're doing rather well and if you keep that pace up consistently for an entire year, which equates to 780 hours, well you'd be well on your way to handling Spanish very well indeed.

FeoGringo wrote:
Current Abilities
Writing: almost non-existent except for texting with a couple native speaking friends, writing is not a language learning goal at this time

Reading: My reading is poor, other than reading subtitles or podcast transcripts, it is not something I have put much effort into

Listening: This has been my main focus for the past 2+ years.
Just for some concrete reference point, I listened to the first Audio Tarea for the B2 and C1 levels from this DELE Practice website https://examenes.cervantes.es/es/dele/preparar-prueba and I'd say I had 98% understanding on the B2 audio and 95% on the C1 audio. Of course I didn't answer any of the questions (maybe I should do them?) accompanying the audio. But anyway that is my self-assessment of my comprehension for the two practice audio clips. I don't really care about saying I'm at XYZ level, only that it seems to be a helpful marker to communicate level of ability.

I have sampled audio from different units of FSI Basic and I have no problems understanding any of the clips that I sampled.


While it's not against the law to focus on one or two areas of language development primarily, working all skills simultaneously will have benefits for all skills. Writing will help your listening as will reading in that you will have a clearer picture in your mind/ clearer understanding of grammar not only from your listening activities but via visual input and will reinforce acquisition of new vocabulary.

FeoGringo wrote:
In the real world, I have to ask people to repeat themselves (part of me thinks I might have some hearing loss but hasn't been confirmed with testing).


Do you have to ask people to repeat themselves often in your native language? If no, then I doubt you have hearing loss (at least not to a significant extent). If you are asking others to repeat themselves in your native language, and more so than others around you, go get a hearing test for peace of mind as you might be right. Most adults have some degree of hearing loss but we manage okay. A little hearing loss won't stop you from learning, it might mean you're a little slower to catch on at times, but in due course, with more Spanish learning you'll generally adapt as you do in your native language (if that's the case). With your listening descriptions however, I doubt you have hearing problems. Look after your hearing, I don't need to explain why.


FeoGringo wrote: At work I understand responses and am able to speak on a very narrow scope of topics related to work. But regular on the fly conversations are difficult for me to understand. Native media is hit or miss, often depending on accent, but sometimes my comprehension varies between shows for no reason that I can really identify. For example Netflix shows without subtitles - I'm getting the gist of most things with some shows and the very occasional show I'm really able to follow along pretty well but it's usually for brief periods of time. Another example would be RadioAmbulante where the occasional episode I have great comprehension of sections, sometimes for a long duration of time and other episodes I am lost for the majority of the episode. I'm not sure how much of the lack of comprehension is due to a lack of vocab versus different accents.


My assumption would be it's mainly lack of vocabulary. However, I've been known to be wrong.

FeoGringo wrote:Speaking: I can say some pre-scripted things and, as mentioned above, it is mostly work related. I can operate in that very narrow area without much difficulty. Spontaneous speech is a train wreck but I have not really actively worked on output.


FeoGringo wrote:Pitfalls
2.) Being overly concerned about accent and pronunciation to the point that I think it has made me hesitant to actually delve into some tried and true resources that require you to actually open your mouth and speak.

3.) Possibly holding on too long to the Refold idea of getting your listening to a very high level before starting to output.


FeoGringo wrote:I think I should make a concerted effort to nail down pronunciation. But the question is how. There are many ways to approach it.


FeoGringo wrote:Nail down every individual phoneme first? (I can't do an alveolar trill to save my life and not sure I'll ever get there). Then do letter combinations. Single words. Then sentences?


You can be concerned with accent and take great care with output of speech to perfect one's accent while doing away with the idea of listening to loads before doing much speaking. In other words, with a good course (I'm thinking "Destinos: An Introduction to Spanish" but there are others), you can carefully focus on correct phoneme production i.e. output as they are introduced one by one throughout the course. And in using such a course you could work all your skills, expand your vocabulary and improve your grammar. Don't be afraid to speak all vocab aloud, you could shadow the audio recordings and even the videos if you so pleased. If it's generally too slow for you, given your listening abilities, then do some listening to other resources each day as well and be humble - if your speaking and writing is weak(er) then think of the benefits gained in completing the activities in such a course for those skills and as mentioned do some listening to something else as a separate activity.

For me, with French, I did as you described above. I got the hand of individual phonemes (as I worked my way through courses) one by one. I slowed things down (my speech/pronunciation/verbal output) in the beginning and gradually sped up as I mastered more phonemes and then those same phonemes in different combinations (words, then sentences). I did this as I progressed through course work, thereby also developing writing, grammar, vocabulary and so on, always speaking aloud.

Keep trying with the alveolar trill. If you stop trying you won't get it. If you keep trying, I feel you're likely to get it at some point (but I could be wrong).

FeoGringo wrote:2.)Work through one of Ten Minute Spanish's Youtube videos daily? (I think his videos are amazing, just my opinion).

3.) Work through the minimal pairs training of FSI Programmatic and the early units of FSI Basic?

4.) Shadowing or chorusing sentences?

All I know is I need to approach it with the mindset that you're never done working on your pronunciation AND I have to accept I'm not going to fool anyone into thinking I'm a native speaker. I just don't want to sound like a typical gringo, I don't want it to be stressful or effortful for a native speaker to understand what I am saying to them.
[/quote]

My personal very biased opinion is to work through a well-rounded decent course. Destinos. I feel it's the best course ever developped in any language. Again, I'm biased. You could do FSI, you could do something else, you could do FSI first then something else. Whatever gets you motivated and if it's not a course, but you sorely need a course because of the pronunciation, grammar, vocab etc, then do it, but don't over do it. Perhaps a little each day of a course and some other activities of your choice.

I shadowed everything in French, or at least would repeat it after the audio played. I read all vocabulary aloud. Work those muscles to train your mouth, your memory etc.

-------------------------------

Get consistent day in day out with a good plan that has you doing some things you don't love (if that's the case and it's necessary), but rewards you with some activities you prefer, if that's what's necessary to get you doing what you need to do. Also, reward yourself with silly distractions AFTER you've done your daily study/learning.
Last edited by PeterMollenburg on Sun Nov 06, 2022 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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desafiar
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Re: "Restarting" Spanish - Not Sure What To Do

Postby desafiar » Sun Nov 06, 2022 1:49 pm

I didn't see reading on your plan.

It seems you may have a good understanding of the sound of Spanish given your focus of listing to the spoken language, yet getting beyond a certain point has been slow. Perhaps you're hitting a vocabulary wall. Reading provides a consistent opportunity to acquire new vocabulary while reinforcing vocabulary and structures you already know. And with your good internal voice it can be an agent of growth. Reading by nature provides a means to increase focus on new words or structures as needed, or accelerate through areas that are well internalized. By choosing content that is level appropriate, a constant rate of acquiring vocabulary will occur.

Perhaps a commitment to reading x number of words per week or month might bear some fruit.
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Re: "Restarting" Spanish - Not Sure What To Do

Postby Le Baron » Sun Nov 06, 2022 2:41 pm

I agree with the above with regard to reading. Something you acknowledge to have been poorly attended to. Reading matters for getting a grip on vocabulary/structure at your own pace. In a way you can control and investigate.

The OP might also be a clear demonstration of why simply hammering listening of native materials in the way promoted by the 'natural acquisition' school of thought, isn't quite the magic bullet it is portrayed as. No matter what a learner will develop a coping mechanism within learning which narrows their perspective down to a way they've developed for handling the tasks. The very point of delving into 'study' now and again is to shed light on things from other perspectives and clarify things.

You're in an immersive environment so if as you say participation has been limited or even avoided, then it's time to rectify that and suffer some discomfort in order to develop it.
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Re: "Restarting" Spanish - Not Sure What To Do

Postby FeoGringo » Sun Nov 06, 2022 3:03 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:If it's generally too slow for you, given your listening abilities, then do some listening to other resources each day as well and be humble - if your speaking and writing is weak(er) then think of the benefits gained in completing the activities in such a course for those skills and as mentioned do some listening to something else as a separate activity.


"Be humble"! Yes, I think you've identified part of my issue. Part of me feels like going back to these "beginner" activities are going to be slow and boring. I do need to be humble to go from watching native media to working through a beginner's course. But avoidance of these things is why I never built a proper base/foundation.


PeterMollenburg wrote:Get consistent day in day out with a good plan that has you doing some things you don't love (if that's the case and it's necessary), but rewards you with some activities you prefer, if that's what's necessary to get you doing what you need to do. Also, reward yourself with silly distractions AFTER you've done your daily study/learning.


Thank you for this advice and for your detailed response.
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Re: "Restarting" Spanish - Not Sure What To Do

Postby FeoGringo » Sun Nov 06, 2022 3:07 pm

desafiar wrote:I didn't see reading on your plan... Perhaps you're hitting a vocabulary wall. Reading provides a consistent opportunity to acquire new vocabulary while reinforcing vocabulary and structures you already know...Perhaps a commitment to reading x number of words per week or month might bear some fruit.


Thank you for this suggestion. Another thing that I needed to hear from someone else because I've really completely ignored reading.
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Re: "Restarting" Spanish - Not Sure What To Do

Postby FeoGringo » Sun Nov 06, 2022 3:12 pm

Le Baron wrote:The OP might also be a clear demonstration of why simply hammering listening of native materials in the way promoted by the 'natural acquisition' school of thought, isn't quite the magic bullet it is portrayed as.


Yep, I am a case study of what not to do :lol:

Le Baron wrote:You're in an immersive environment so if as you say participation has been limited or even avoided, then it's time to rectify that and suffer some discomfort in order to develop it.


I should have clarified in my original post but my work is not an immersive environment per se however probably 85% of our clients are Spanish speakers from Central America. But regardless, your point is well taken to take advantage of the opportunities when they are available.
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Re: "Restarting" Spanish - Not Sure What To Do

Postby FeoGringo » Sun Nov 06, 2022 3:15 pm

BeaP wrote:Stop searching. Swing to the other extreme. Choose one good resource and finish it. Don't do anything else, until you reach the end... If you find it very hard to work deeply on one thing, try to think about it as something temporary.


I will need to periodically remind myself of this. Thank you for this perspective.
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Re: "Restarting" Spanish - Not Sure What To Do

Postby FRAnglais1919 » Sun Nov 06, 2022 7:13 pm

It looks like you have a good grasp of the basics. If you really want to start fresh, Destinos is purportedly a good program (I did French in Action, its French equivalent, and had great success–both my grammar and vocab improved significantly. Destinos is free btw). You just need a push from low-intermediate to advanced. For listening comprehension at least, what helped me was focused grammar and syntax study, as well as LOTS of hours of listening. To understand speakers well, it's vital to know how Spanish speakers craft their sentences. Are they comparing things? Are they expressing a wish? Are they hypothesizing? Expressing a cause-effect relationship? Are they exclaiming or showing surprise? Are they demanding/requesting you do something? Are they criticizing or praising? etc. At some point you need to overcome simple phrases that have to do with the weather, work tasks, or food.

Get your hands on a solid grammar and syntax books that shows you how Spanish sentences are commonly made. In addition, you should read a lot of Spanish material and listen to Spanish speakers that you can understand. I can't stress the last part enough–there is no point in listening if you only understand 60% or less of the material and consistently miss the rest. You might as well not listen. The way to know is, if you honestly understand the main idea of what you're hearing and miss one or two details here and there, you're golden. Short-length kids shows, news programs, and documentaries are good places to start. Transcripts and subtitles are also helpful, at least at first. Another practice point is to transcribe what you hear to see if you understood correctly. Listen to something short, maybe a sentence or two, pause, and write down what you heard. It's great practice that forces you to pay attention to every word. From there on, patience is your friend! You'll get better over time. You'll soon understand that 95% of sentences use the same 200 or 300 words repeatedly, just arranged differently to express different ideas.
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