Self-taught study

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luke
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Re: Self-taught study

Postby luke » Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:10 pm

dlt529 wrote:I think sometimes people forget (or are unaware) that Krashen was trained in the Chomskyian approach to linguistics, with a fundamental division between competence (intuitions) and performance (use), and was really only concerned with competence--performance is always an after thought.

That's an interesting point. We also had B.F. Skinner, who published Verbal Behavior in the same year that Chomsky published Syntactic Structures (1957). I'd be curious how much of Krashen's linguistic philosophy was a reaction to Skinner's behavioral theory.
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dlt529
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Re: Self-taught study

Postby dlt529 » Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:57 pm

luke wrote:
dlt529 wrote:I think sometimes people forget (or are unaware) that Krashen was trained in the Chomskyian approach to linguistics, with a fundamental division between competence (intuitions) and performance (use), and was really only concerned with competence--performance is always an after thought.

That's an interesting point. We also had B.F. Skinner, who published Verbal Behavior in the same year that Chomsky published Syntactic Structures (1957). I'd be curious how much of Krashen's linguistic philosophy was a reaction to Skinner's behavioral theory.


That's a great question, I'm not sure. I haven't read Skinner directly, but in most reviews of language learning they preset him and his ideas as the last straw, which lead Chomsky to start writing ang thinking about language. Krashen, as far as I know, began writing when Chomsky was getting well known, so I've always assumed a direct continuation. Chomsky didn't do much with second language aquisition, and Krashen is one of the first big names we have that started writing about it.
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sfuqua
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Re: Self-taught study

Postby sfuqua » Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:15 pm

Yes, Chomsky seems to require a "magic language acquisition device," which changes imperfect input into a perfect internal knowledge of the language.
I started out as a Biology major, and one of the things that bothered me was how the representations of the LAD seemed to rule out the development of such a mental organ through evolution.
I don't think this is viewed as a big problem these days, with all the examples of machine learning, which provide models for learning which produce something similar to Chomsky's LAD (please help me anyone who is more current with the literature!).
I remember being also worried by Derek Bickerton's views on the differences between Pidgins and Creoles, which also invoke the magical LAD to take care of language development.

I had a stupid argument with another person here at the forum a few years ago, which actually turned out to centre on the way that the definition for the word "creole" has changed for people in the field over the past couple of decades. I was out of date; the way Bickerton used the term, back when Talking Heads was a new band, is not the way that it is used today. :o

On reflection, it is only appropriate that somebody verbally slap me around of the use of a linguistic term, since I was one of the young idiots who used to chuckle at the old fools who hadn't yet picked up on the way that the field had changed the meaning of the word "acquisition" in the wake of Krashen. :lol:

Just fixed a repeated word :-(
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Russ2022
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Re: Self-taught study

Postby Russ2022 » Fri Nov 04, 2022 7:03 am

First of all, "writing and correction with automatic programmes" is largely a waste of time.

You are not taking into account these factors.

The difference between the initial and target levels in English: reading, writing, listening, speaking.

Average school grades in native language and literature; number of books read.

Reading speed, verbal and non-verbal reading comprehension (see PISA, PIRLS tests) in the native language, awareness of pragmatics and semantics of the native language, speed and variety of paraphrasing, understanding the difference between synonyms, styles, the speed of oral speech.

Knowledge of other foreign languages, their degree of relationship with English.

Psychological factors: the student's motivation, degree of interest actualization, attention management, reflection (awareness of actions and self-observation), imagination, self-esteem, self-organization, sociability, stress tolerance, attention span and memory (how many times one repeats the same mistake, how much information one can simultaneously keep in his working memory), perseverance (how quickly one quits), tendency to get offended, the degree of conformism (the desire to be "like everyone else"), etc.

The degree of overload with information that has nothing to do with learning English (the level of "information noise"), the ability to quickly switch and "reboot" the brain.

Place of residence, social and linguistic environment.

Age, health, diet, drug use (alcohol, etc.), sleep, gender, etc.

Did the student study music and singing as a child?

The degree of awareness of articulation (how well can imitate the speech of others).

At what age he started talking, how well.

The availability of a teacher, how professional he is, the frequency and duration of the classes, the after-class support.

The study process and materials.

Self-study skills.

At what time of the day, how and on what schedule do they work

How comfortable and new the ambience is, how actively students can move.

The number of students in the group, their compatibility with each other.

And some other factors too.

In other words, your question was not specific enough.
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