FRENCH C1 Vocabulary

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frenchfish55
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FRENCH C1 Vocabulary

Postby frenchfish55 » Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:57 am

How many words should i know to pass the exam?
Is 10 000 words (ANKI) Enough?
Will it be enough to learn words from this book Vocabulaire progressif du francais - Niveau C1
or I need to use better books,sources?
What would you suggest for learning vocabulary?
Articles from native news or such books about vocabulary?
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Re: FRENCH C1 Vocabulary

Postby Iversen » Tue Aug 30, 2022 11:35 am

I have done a number of wordcounts across my languages, and I have a number of languages at different levels to compare. If by "word" you mean "headword" as in a dictionary, then I would say that 10.000 headwords is about half what I need to feel comfortable reading ordinary genuine texts with limited access to dictionaries - but there will allways be words you don't know in such texts. Cave: some counts in the literature refer to wordforms (i.e. inflected forms count), others to word families, which are words grouped around one root. I don't know how Anki define a "word", but for those that use LingQ I have noticed that they quote surprisingly high numbers. This has of course nothing to do with the size of your active vocabulary, which is bound to be smaller.

Actually "headword" is also a slightly dubious notion - some items that consist of two-word compunds in English are expressed by a single long word in German. So personally I prefer evaluating my vocabulary in terms of percentages of known words in a midsize dictionary, and that means that you should know at least half the words in any standard dictionary - and that percentage should be relatively stable whatever the size of the dictionary (except the monsters that contains 100.000 headswords or more - then it would be a little too much to expect you to know half of them).

If you take an ordinary oldfashioned midsize dictionary then it may contain 30-40.000 headwords, and in spite if this you still run into words that aren't found in the dictionary - and we are not just speaking about technical terms or slang here. So even if you had a vocabulary of 40.000 words inside you had you would still occasionally run into new words (or words used in an unexpected way). I think professor Arguelles once mentioned a couple of unknown words on each page as an acceptable level for comfortable reading on a airplane, which might be slightly more than a C1 level (for reading) - maybe this could be used as a distant, but not impossible goal for learners.

As for methods ... well, I use triple column wordlists (coupled with reading and all that stuff), while other prefer Anki. The main point is that you do something active to pick up more words. I know that there are people that expect the words to come by themselves from extensive activities like reading and listening, but for me those things are primarily activities that serve to make words stick by adding context to them (and simply repeating them).
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Re: FRENCH C1 Vocabulary

Postby anitarrc » Tue Aug 30, 2022 12:54 pm

My problem with these vocabulary training methods is that they DON'T care about the context. they just allow for 1:1
Let me make a case for the context method
Captura de pantalla 2022-08-30 dicionario.jpg


This is for the German word "Weite"
For each case, I could come up with an example. At work, I really have to choose the right one, meaning I memorize these terms in context.

here is a Spanish example for space, you can see only half of the definitions.
Captura de pantalla 2022-08-30 espacio.jpg


Well, which one do I pick? It is my job to know and it requires both technical and translating experience.
My decision depends on understanding the context.
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Re: FRENCH C1 Vocabulary

Postby Iversen » Tue Aug 30, 2022 12:58 pm

If you know the 'core' meaning (or just one of them if it has several widely different meanings) then you can add secondary meanings, expressions and other factors later - but you need to establish the word as a separate thing first, and that's where the hardcore study methods have their raison d'être. They are not supposed to give you the whole story from the beginning.
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Re: FRENCH C1 Vocabulary

Postby PeterMollenburg » Tue Aug 30, 2022 1:51 pm

Iversen wrote:I use triple column wordlists


Hi Iversen,

A little off topic here, but a brief question. What are the three columns in your wordlists? Three different languages? English, Danish, Target Language? Or are you columns based on something else? Just curious as I'm writing new vocabulary (words, phrases, expressions) to an exercise book with three columns - Norwegian (my target language), French, English.
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Re: FRENCH C1 Vocabulary

Postby BeaP » Tue Aug 30, 2022 2:39 pm

Which exam? DALF C1?

For any CEFR exam I think the best resource is a CEFR coursebook: Défi C1, Édito C1, Cosmopolite 5, Tendances C1.
Google the topics in these books and look for additional newspaper articles. Collect vocabulary based on these topics.

No-one counts your vocabulary at an exam. You need to understand the comprehension tasks (it depends on a lot of different things how many vocabulary items you need to know passively for this) and make the impression of a competent speaker (again, there are a lot of ways to achieve this, it doesn't only depend on the vocabulary size).

You need to be able to use these words in context with correct grammar and pronunciation. You have to build up your texts with linking words and other elements of cohesion. If the exam is your goal, don't focus on the number. Focus on what each skill means for the examiners, what's the exam description.
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Re: FRENCH C1 Vocabulary

Postby Iversen » Tue Aug 30, 2022 2:52 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:What are the three columns in your wordlists? Three different languages? English, Danish, Target Language? Or are you columns based on something else?

I have written a lot about them in my guide to learning languages here at Llorg, so I'll just give a short version of it here.

The first point is that I work on blocks of words - typically around seven, but depending on the words it could be more or less. The idea is that you need to recall each one after you have been thinking about something else. I imagine that this will make it easier to activate the words later.

In the first column I write around 7 words from the target language. Sometimes they are (once) unknown ones from my study texts, but they can also be picked directly from a dictionary. When I am sure I can write their translations I fill out the middle column. OK, then I make sure that I know them all and cover column 1 - and then I have to write the original words from column 1 in column 3. If I can't then I leave the misses to be done with along with the next block. In this way I already get a couple of repetitions and 'soft' testing within a few minutes, and then I do a repetition a day later or so.

This repetition could be done simply by rereading the original study text if the words were picked from a text (all words have to be known by now!), but if they came from a dictionary I normally copy the translation column (no. 2) block by block, and yes - I can glance at the original words if I want to, it counts as an extra repetition - and then I have to write those original words in a new column like no. 1 or 3 without peeking.

This system has worked for me, but it may not work for everone. Or rather, it might, but I imagine that some learners would find it so boring that it wouldn't work. Then they can try Anki, but personally I don't like the idea of being interrogated by a piece of software. I get tested every time I read a text or listen to some speech.
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Re: FRENCH C1 Vocabulary

Postby PeterMollenburg » Tue Aug 30, 2022 2:59 pm

Iversen wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:What are the three columns in your wordlists? Three different languages? English, Danish, Target Language? Or are you columns based on something else?

I have written a lot about them in my guide to learning languages here at Llorg, so I'll just give a short version of it here.

The first point is that I work on blocks of words - typically around seven, but depending on the words it could be more or less. The idea is that you need to recall each one after you have been thinking about something else. I imagine that this will make it easier to activate the words later.

In the first column I write around 7 words from the target language. Sometimes they are (once) unknown ones from my study texts, but they can also be picked directly from a dictionary. When I am sure I can write their translations I fill out the middle column. OK, then I make sure that I know then and cover column one - and then I have to write the original words from column 1in column 3. If I cant't then I leave then to be done with the next block. In this way I already get a couple of repetitions and 'soft' testing within a few minuts, and then I do a repetition a day later or so.

The repetition could be done simply by rereading the original study text if the words were picked from one, but if they came from a dictionary I tend to copy the translation column (no. 2) block by block, and yes - I can glance at the original words if I want to, it counts as an extra repetition - and then I have to write those original words in a new column with peeking.

This system has worked for me, but it may not work for everone. Or rather, it might, but I imagine that some learners would find it so boring that it wouldn't work. Then they can try Anki, but personally I don't like the idea of being interrogated by a piece of software. I get tested every time I read a text or listen to some speech.


Thank you for explaining it, Iversen. I appreciate it. Your method is quite unique and clearly a good fit for you. I do utilise word lists too, but of course in a different way to yourself, but we can always learn from others. Thanks again!
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Re: FRENCH C1 Vocabulary

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Tue Aug 30, 2022 3:04 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:A little off topic here, but a brief question. What are the three columns in your wordlists? Three different languages? English, Danish, Target Language? Or are you columns based on something else? Just curious as I'm writing new vocabulary (words, phrases, expressions) to an exercise book with three columns - Norwegian (my target language), French, English.


Target - "base" language (native or another strong language) - target:

Three column wordlists
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Re: FRENCH C1 Vocabulary

Postby s_allard » Wed Aug 31, 2022 11:37 am

BeaP wrote:Which exam? DALF C1?

For any CEFR exam I think the best resource is a CEFR coursebook: Défi C1, Édito C1, Cosmopolite 5, Tendances C1.
Google the topics in these books and look for additional newspaper articles. Collect vocabulary based on these topics.

No-one counts your vocabulary at an exam. You need to understand the comprehension tasks (it depends on a lot of different things how many vocabulary items you need to know passively for this) and make the impression of a competent speaker (again, there are a lot of ways to achieve this, it doesn't only depend on the vocabulary size).

You need to be able to use these words in context with correct grammar and pronunciation. You have to build up your texts with linking words and other elements of cohesion. If the exam is your goal, don't focus on the number. Focus on what each skill means for the examiners, what's the exam description.


I was all set to fire off one of my usual rants about the uselessness of counting words for the CEFR tests when I saw that BeaP beat me to the punch. Some of the readers here know that I have written extensively about this question, saying basically that you that to pass any of these exams you only need to « know » a tiny number of words very well.

I know that some old-timers will exclaim : « There goes s_allard saying again that you only need 300 words to pass a C2 exam.» Here is what I really said. In the various parts of the test, you will have to read, write, listen and speak. How many different words will you use in each of those sections ? And keep in mind a very important statistic : the 30 most common words in French make up about 50% of most written and spoken samples. The simple fact is that when you have to write or speak you will only actually produce a very small number of words.

Let’s take the speaking test. I’m more familiar with the Spanish C2 and the German B2 formats than with the DALF French tests. Basically you have to give a short presentation and talk about a subject with an examiner in front of you and another one to the side or behind you.

We all know that after a few minutes of listening to us the examiners have a pretty good idea of our proficiency level. We do exactly the same thing when we listen to foreigners speaking our language. What counts is not how many words we can spew out in the shortest time ; it’s how we can skillfully use the words we have.. Speaking proficiency is a combination of the right words in the right form in the right order with fluency and good pronunciation.

So, in a five-minute conversation with the examiner, you might use around 300 different words. Or maybe 400 or maybe only 200. But it’s certainly not 10,000. Remember that half the words coming out of our mouth will be just 30 different words. If you can use your words really well, who cares about the others?

When it comes to the listening and writing sections, things are somewhat different. You may be only confronted with 300 different words, but which ones out of a possible 40,000 or more ? Do you really have to know all 40,000 words because any one can show up ? Of course not. You have to study strategically here. These tests are not topical tests on the news of the day. Neither are they very technical. You will not be asked to explain how an MRI machine works. You will read or hear some generic text on an everyday subject. Something like : Do you think that environmental pollution is still a big problem today ? Think of all the many directions you can take with this question.

The way to prepare for this is a combination of lots of general reading and concentrating on how ideas and facts are put together. Connecting words are very important. You can practice certain formulaic ways of starting your answers so that you can hit the ground running when you start writing. Of course it goes without saying that grammar and spelling are very important.

In summary, forget about counting words. Just learn whatever you need.
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