Formal Language School in Germany -- Pros And cons!

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german2k01
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Formal Language School in Germany -- Pros And cons!

Postby german2k01 » Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:56 pm

Hello Guys,

I am about to finish my German language course aimed at the A2 level. I have done 2 official tests which tested my grammar knowledge based on the chapters the Netzwerk coursebook contained. One more test to go before I get an official certificate. Based on my observations around, these are the things I have noticed objectively.

Cons

1. Expensive course. 500 Euros plus 30 euros for exercise and course books. (Netzwerk)
2. Very slow in terms of covering grammar concepts.
3. Hearing bad accented German by other students. Heavily influenced by the sound system of their native languages. No feedback by teachers with regards to their pronunciation issues.
4. Little reading and listening activities were done. Not intense at all.
5. Students have to write a detailed essay about a complex topic in the written section of the test. How students can write a decent essay just based on little input activities? Beyond my comprehension. Out of thin air? :D
6. Using spoken and informal expression in class are frowned upon by teachers. However, in day-to-day interactions, natives use them all the time.


Pros.
1. Listening to Native German Teachers. An additional listening practice that is clear and comprehensible. (You can get this listening practice done by watching YouTubers in relation to your interests, Also, as podcasts).
2. Speaking practice. In 3.5 hour class, you get to speak for only 10 minutes. Having italki lessons can be a good alternative option. or creating questions by yourself out of a lesson and answering them like a teacher is asking you. That's how I will do it. I gained a new perspective.
3. Get an inside view into how formal tests are conducted and written by test organizations. You get used to the format of the test and how to look for certain key information, however, how much does get converted into actually acquiring a language is a debatable question.
4. Attending such a course has allowed me to introduce some of my learning time into an active study, for example, shadowing, practicing with audio sentences in Anki, etc
5. Gaining relevant vocabulary based on real-like situations, for example, giving directions to a stranger over the phone, ordering coffee, etc.
6. Teachers are going through the formal book so as a student I just have to show up. So there is an element of discipline and there is not a long pause between study sessions.

My purpose in writing such a post is to get a second opinion when it comes to enrolling for the next level. I am thinking I should just save my money, just buy a formal course book aimed at the B1 level and work my way through. Just cover the missing grammar information that might be covered in the B1 level. For speaking practice just do out-of-ordinary activities and get out of my comfort zone. For example, today I registered for a library card at a public library, and then I went through the whole process in German. The librarian understood me and I understood him. What other activities should I do?

It is a cost-effective option? What do you guys think about it? Thanks in advance for your feedback.
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Re: Formal Language School in Germany -- Pros And cons!

Postby iguanamon » Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:41 pm

The forum is about how to learn languages on one's own. The default reply will almost always be to do it yourself. It is an implied basis on a website for self-learners of languages. Most of us here live outside the TL countries and will not be living the language as you will be. I can't really give you any advice as I am not, and have not been, in your situation. I can tell you what I have learned for myself over the years.

Can a learner achieve a high level in a language without formal instruction? Yes. People do it all the time here. In order to get this level in a language a learner has to be humble. They must accept certain things. Among things that must be accepted as a self-learner:
1) Mistakes will be made- making mistakes is inevitable but it helps us to learn
2) The time it takes is what it takes. Some people are able to move more quickly than others. Some concepts are more easily grasped than others. FSI numbers of how long it takes are something you should throw out the window. Once you accept this, then you can learn without expectations and free yourself from the tyranny of those expectations.
3) In order to really learn a language well, a learner must engage with a TL by using it- writing, reading, listening, and speaking. A learner must engage with native materials and native-speakers. Mistakes will be made. Learning to listen takes time. Speaking will be hard at first. Reading and writing will be a struggle at first. Putting one's self out there with native-speakers with your imperfect skills is scary, but it is necessary. It's more than worth the trouble to do.

Sometimes, "engaging with native materials" may mean reading, listening to, and watching things we may not choose to do in our languages. I have read "chick-lit", listened to religious podcasts, watched soap operas, comedy shows, listened to dry newscasts, read replies to youtube videos and restaurant/travel reviews, read comic books, etc. When learning a language, nothing is beneath me. I am not too good to read a comic book.
4) Perfection is not possible. This may be hard to accept for some. Yes, we may strive for perfection, but we must accept that we may not reach it. There is, indeed, such a thing as "good enough". C2 level is not perfection. A friend of mine moved to the US at age 19 from France. He has lived in the US for over 50 years. He still has a slight French accent.
5) Humility comes into play by recognizing our imperfection and the futility in thinking we can reach it. Once we accept this, we can work toward being the best we can be given our circumstances.

You are lucky to live in an immersive environment. You can study on your own. There are plenty of resources available for you to learn German. These are not perfect either. You will have to use them as a foundation to learn on your own. You can also work with a private tutor- either in-person or online to help you along the way. You will still have to pay money, but you won't have to work to the level of other students and listen to their mistakes.

I can't tell you what to do for yourself. Nobody here can. What I mentioned are lessons I have learned from my own personal experience. Do what you want to do.
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Re: Formal Language School in Germany -- Pros And cons!

Postby Le Baron » Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:03 am

I wouldn't give that default answer. I think a mixture of self-study and formal instruction can be beneficial. Not a requirement, but beneficial. And that in my experience only tends to fail when the students don't extract the maximum possible out of it. I say that because when I've attended classes there has been a lot of talking. A lot more than 10 minutes. Usually people are afraid to talk so someone has to get the ball rolling. A long time ago I used to be painfully shy, but all that is history, so I am always prepared to do this. I have no fear of making mistakes and when others see that they are prepared to talk. Then everyone is talking. If you feel not enough talking is going on, initiate it.

If a learner isn't already doing other immersive activities like reading and listening to speech audio, they're already putting themselves at a disadvantage. This should be considered a bog-standard requirement for a person attending full-time classes or not and I'd expect anyone who has been studying on their own to be doing those things already. I'd extend this to speaking and interacting, especially if the person is in the TL country. It may be that some people in classes are not self-study learners; that they have signed up from zero or from a previous course experience. It's normal that people would come from different histories.
german2k01 wrote:For example, today I registered for a library card at a public library, and then I went through the whole process in German. The librarian understood me and I understood him. What other activities should I do?

More of those types of things. As many as you can devise or have to do. Just as many as the number of books you might decide to read, or even more. In previous posts you said that you had other encounters with e.g. a doctor (or the bank?) and that it was a success and the person looked surprised at the quality of your accent. At that juncture, if it was me, I would have saved myself €500 and just carried on doing things like that.
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Re: Formal Language School in Germany -- Pros And cons!

Postby BeaP » Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:41 am

The biggest argument for a course like this is the exam. What kind of exam do you need to pass? People who are not outstandingly experienced in taking language exams usually need at least some feedback on writing and speaking from someone who knows how the particular exam works. It doesn't necessarily have to be this course, it can be a private tutor, whichever fits your needs. I'd say it's good to have the exam behind you and continue without the pressure.

The second important aspect is discipline. If you're able to work through a CEFR-aligned coursebook alone, it's fine. I admit that I lack discipline, and I sometimes spend weeks without textbook work, but I'm not under any pressure to pass the exam. You need to know this yourself.

There are several occasions/threads when I feel that the OP doesn't have a problem related strictly to language learning. There are members who answer your questions with extreme patience and helpfulness, you must be someone who's easy to like (I've already told you this). Why on Earth do you need to limit your conversations to official situations? You don't have a colleague who would like to drink a beer with you after work? No-one would like to be your exchange partner in the school? I know it's easier said than done, but if you think your money would be better spent elsewhere, you could join a sports club, buy a dog (or volunteer for walking shelter dogs), I don't know, anything that takes you out to the street and helps you initiate conversation.
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Re: Formal Language School in Germany -- Pros And cons!

Postby s_allard » Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:56 pm

As iguanamon rightly pointed out, nobody here is going to recommend continuing with expensive formal classes when you can learn very well on your own.

I always recommend that people start a new language with formal classes where possible because there is that steep initial learning curve that requires discipline and structure. Once that is over and you have an basic idea of how the language works, you can take charge of the learning process on your own.

But this does not mean studying holed-up by yourself in your bedroom. Today there are countless resources available today via the Internet. Two things come to mind : meetup groups and tutors.

Meetup and language exchange groups can be a bit of a hit-or-miss but you do get a chance to meet people and socialize with other learners. And you are living in Germany ! It can’t get better than that.

The other thing is that you have to get one or more tutors. It could be some inexpensive conversation partner or a more expensive professional teacher. You will need someone to correct you, answer your questions, encourage you and help you move along. Be prepared to spend some money but probably less that what the language course would cost. And Gute Reise.
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Re: Formal Language School in Germany -- Pros And cons!

Postby Le Baron » Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:28 pm

Hiring a tutor/conversation partner whilst being in the TL country seems to me crazy.
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german2k01
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Re: Formal Language School in Germany -- Pros And cons!

Postby german2k01 » Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:14 pm

Hiring a tutor/conversation partner whilst being in the TL country seems to me crazy.


Well, you know, native speakers are not good at everything. And they can not answer anything related to the mechanics of the language. In Germany, everyone has a busy life and It is not easy to strike up a conversation with strangers. Only professional tutors can clarify it for you.
In fact, I am not saying that it has been a futile experience it is the other way around, for example, now I am in a better position to approach my studies on my own.

Today my tutor told me I wrote the best essay in the last exam in German. In reality, It was the third time ever I wrote something in German. She told me that I could THINK in the German language on a very high level.

Today I visited the library again. This time I went to the receptionist counter and made an inquiry about the regulations of borrowing DVDs and books. I spoke a few sentences and in reply, I heard a few sentences from a German native speaker.

I will start reading books in the library and there are German natives who are there too. Therefore, I may venture and strike up a conversation.

Le Baron, I am trying my best to implement your ideas into practice.
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Re: Formal Language School in Germany -- Pros And cons!

Postby s_allard » Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:24 pm

Le Baron wrote:Hiring a tutor/conversation partner whilst being in the TL country seems to me crazy.


If I can quote myself : ” You will need someone to correct you, answer your questions, encourage you and help you move along.” I call this language coaching. If you can get all this for free, great. Some of us might have to pay for these services.
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german2k01
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Re: Formal Language School in Germany -- Pros And cons!

Postby german2k01 » Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:26 pm

I always recommend that people start a new language with formal classes where possible because there is that steep initial learning curve that requires discipline and structure. Once that is over and you have an basic idea of how the language works, you can take charge of the learning process on your own.


You hit the nail on the head. I can review grammar points in a grammar book on my own. However, it was a nice experience to learn to know how formal language schools in your target country approach teaching grammar.
I totally agree with you. Going through a formal course book you need discipline and structure. And studying on your own can be a boring experience. Because of this same reason you have laid out above, in my case, who can do self-study with no issues, it does not make sense to further shell out money. If I need a certificate I can go for it later on and directly register for the exam.
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Re: Formal Language School in Germany -- Pros And cons!

Postby Lawyer&Mom » Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:31 pm

If taking a course gets you out of the house and interacting with people that’s a huge benefit. That doesn’t just magically happen, especially when you are living in a foreign country. If that’s something you need it is something worth paying for. If I were in your shoes I would take the class. I personally need structure. (Not for language study, but for my life.) If I didn’t have a job and family to provide that structure I would need school. I don’t do well with unstructured time, and I know there are lots of people like me.
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