Formal Language School in Germany -- Pros And cons!

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Re: Formal Language School in Germany -- Pros And cons!

Postby german2k01 » Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:34 pm

I say that because when I've attended classes there has been a lot of talking. A lot more than 10 minutes. Usually people are afraid to talk so someone has to get the ball rolling.


There are other 15 students in the class who have similar needs to me so they have to speak as well. I am not the only one. And teachers have to explain grammar concepts and also allow time for doing grammar drills and for doing some role play activities like those listed in a course book. Overall for me, the best part of attending such a course is listening to my German native teachers and how they form sentences spontaneously without stuttering.
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Re: Formal Language School in Germany -- Pros And cons!

Postby Le Baron » Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:01 pm

s_allard wrote:
Le Baron wrote:Hiring a tutor/conversation partner whilst being in the TL country seems to me crazy.

If I can quote myself : ” You will need someone to correct you, answer your questions, encourage you and help you move along.” I call this language coaching. If you can get all this for free, great. Some of us might have to pay for these services.

The key part of my objection is 'in the TL country'. If a person can't find instructive interaction in a place the TL is actually spoken as the national language, the entire thing is going to be a bit of an uphill struggle. Our esteemed OP appeared to be having this issue, which was the point of taking classes. And if one is sitting in a room with people doing German, where some actually are Germans, and maybe sitting on a bus/train among Germans to get there, and perhaps having the opportunity to go and buy a sandwich on the way back from someone who is likely a German... Then I'd find it a very odd state affairs if there was no useful interaction going on or opportunities for it.

Apparently OP has already found the key to learning fluent German, which is "30 months" (aka 2.5 years) of isolated and silent 'input', where you come out the other end as a functioning German speaker sounding like Boris Becker. Whilst I am sceptical about this I supposed that if it was true it would manifest itself in this situation. To be honest I am not sure what has happened. Since there is apparently nothing but a measly 10 minutes of structured talking and speaking to people in the street is apparently no longer allowed. Neither is speaking to work colleagues. Or maybe this is happening and we don't know? Last time these people were incomprehensible. So I'm baffled as to what it is.

I'd say to anyone that if you're in, let's say, Italy and you've been pursuing Italian for nearly three years; and that all the people around you speak Italian so that all the stuff you need to do in life requires that you keep repeating Italian speaking patterns day-in, day-out, whilst you learn 'on the job', and privately at home, more vocabulary and grammar... If that doesn't lead to being somewhat functional as a basis for getting better at Italian over the course of, say, five more years, then someone has gone wrong. Especially if you're waiting for a switch to click into place after doing some sacred 'method', which is likely to disappoint.
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Re: Formal Language School in Germany -- Pros And cons!

Postby german2k01 » Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:10 pm

The key part of my objection is 'in the TL country'. If a person can't find instructive interaction in a place the TL is actually spoken as the national language, the entire thing is going to be a bit of an uphill struggle. Our esteemed OP appeared to be having this issue, which was the point of taking classes. And if one is sitting in a room with people doing German, where some actually are Germans, and maybe sitting on a bus/train among Germans to get there, and perhaps having the opportunity to go and buy a sandwich on the way back from someone who is likely a German... Then I'd find it a very odd state affairs if there was no useful interaction going on or opportunities for it.

Apparently OP has already found the key to learning fluent German, which is "30 months" (aka 2.5 years) of isolated and silent 'input', where you come out the other end as a functioning German speaker sounding like Boris Becker.


Let me give you my thoughts since you have raised an objection about finding a Golden method. I found a weekend job. I spoke a few sentences with my German boss. I did not look out for compliments, however, he complimented me to be on the right track when he heard my German. I ended up answering an unassisted reading test (part of an employment survey). I solved it on my Boss's computer. There was no internet. I answered all 15 questions correctly. It was written in formal/technical/textbook German. When I was leaving his office, he asked me if I read novels. At this point, I did not touch a single german GRAMMAR book. However, I did L+R method with 8 lengthy novels as per instructions.

Today my German teacher told me I wrote the best essay among the other 15 students. This is the third time ever I wrote about something in German. I have evidence to back it up if the input-based approach is the way to go. if formal classes are the way to go, why does this forum exist in the first place? At least one of those 15 students should have done better than me?

In my workplace, I work with other students who are from South Asia and who have taken formal courses up to the B2 level in Germany. I have yet to see them speaking fluent German. The only person whom I have met fits the definition of working fluency. He worked there for 6 years. In addition, he did 1-year foundational course all subjects were taught in German before getting into a degree program. So you can judge by yourself what level of input is needed to speak fluent/functional German.


As promised, by the end of the year I will post my video speaking German if it sounds gibberish then you are free to criticize Dr. Brown's approach or input-based silent period approach.

When buying a sandwich or a cup of coffee, the conversation revolves around the same repetitive 4 sentences. It is like hearing the same 4 sentences 500 times does that mean I am a functional German speaker? I do not think so.

Whatever vocabulary I have used in the class that is not covered in the A2 formal course book. And my subconscious mind is coming up with full sentences without thinking about grammar rules.
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Re: Formal Language School in Germany -- Pros And cons!

Postby Le Baron » Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:04 pm

german2k01 wrote:When buying a sandwich or a cup of coffee, the conversation revolves around the same repetitive 4 sentences. It is like hearing the same 4 sentences 500 times does that mean I am a functional German speaker? I do not think so.

Whatever vocabulary I have used in the class that is not covered in the A2 formal course book. And my subconscious mind is coming up with full sentences without thinking about grammar rules.

Then I assume all this interaction was in German? So why are you taking classes? You evidently don't need them.

When I talked about 'buying a sandwich' it doesn't mean the whole extent of German will be found in the basic interactions around buying sandwiches. It was shorthand for 'making opportunities'. I also think you might be underestimating the value of repeating key structures again and again and again, in real time with possible unpredictability, day after day. A lot of speaking 'fluency' and ability is in having these habits formed. it's what the rest of the stuff hangs on.

I think by now, after almost 3 years, to look back and point to "Dr Brown" and say 'this is what did it', will be invalid as a diagnosis. After years of deliberate exposure any person should by now be familiar with grammatical structures. How can they not be? I would expect there to be structures and examples embedded in someone's mind from all this. Practically everyone on this website is doing some form of mass input learning. Results are variable, but who knows what the real factors are? For every success the methodologies seem to have overlap, but also contradictory parts: e.g. some start talking immediately, some are more silent; some do little direct grammar; some swear by audiobooks, some never touch them. Also the accrual of things for recall from conscious and less-conscious sources can't really be measured or known.

One thing I've noticed among learners is that they go through the usual curve of learning, which is similar for everyone. The incomprehensible stage, then half-understanding, then becoming capable. In that last stage whatever one happens to be pursuing tends to be named as the thing which finally did it. And if it has a name, 'Dr Proctor's method', then Dr Proctor is now what people need to learn X-language. Which turns out to be the same as: spend two years or so reading books, listening to audio, watching videos and generally learning stuff. Which is a sort of common sense. It reminds me a lot of: take this pill, say this incantation, pray to Jove, rest in bed and in two weeks your cold will be magically cured! Which turns out to be the same as: rest in bed and over the course of two weeks your cold will pass.

Anyhow, I'm glad it's all coming together for you. All the effort you've put in has been worth it.
Last edited by Le Baron on Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Formal Language School in Germany -- Pros And cons!

Postby s_allard » Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:12 pm

For what I read here I think you are doing very well. Frankly I don’t see the point of changing anything. The test results are great. There are great compliments from native speakers. At the end of the day what matters is what works for you.
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Re: Formal Language School in Germany -- Pros And cons!

Postby Cavesa » Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:44 pm

I have a very similar experience. This post reminds me very much of an older post by myself. The same language, the same thing: "intensive language course", the same problems.

german2k01 wrote:Cons
1. Expensive course. 500 Euros plus 30 euros for exercise and course books. (Netzwerk)
2. Very slow in terms of covering grammar concepts.
3. Hearing bad accented German by other students. Heavily influenced by the sound system of their native languages. No feedback by teachers with regards to their pronunciation issues.
4. Little reading and listening activities were done. Not intense at all.
5. Students have to write a detailed essay about a complex topic in the written section of the test. How students can write a decent essay just based on little input activities? Beyond my comprehension. Out of thin air? :D
6. Using spoken and informal expression in class are frowned upon by teachers. However, in day-to-day interactions, natives use them all the time.

1.Yes, the price is bad compared to self study. But if there were otherwise more pros than cons (which is not the case), I would consider 500 a fair price. The problem is the value for the price ratio imho. Not the price itself.
2.Yes. This was further worsened by the laziness of the classmates and the zero incentive to work in the free time. No homework, no tips on revising on one's own, we hadn't even gotten the damn workbook (which is like 2/3 of the value of Themen Aktuell, our coursebook). The whole thing was designed to not stress the lazy people and demotivate the actually hard working ones. I stopped self studying in the evenings in the first week :-(
3.Yep. And it wasn't just about the pronunciation, but even grammar mistakes based on the native languages. And the pronunciation was influenced not by the native languages, but in a few days also by the native languages and mistakes of the classmates! It was crazy. Zero teacher feedback, that's a huge failure in my opinion.
4.Exactly. Only one classmate was reading something in the free time and the teacher was totally amazed, she seemed to not have seen anyone try that!
5.We didn't have this. Your course was better in this aspect. But how are people supposed to just write, if they are not taught to, that's a mystery. A test should not be the first time you do something.
6.Interesting. Something I hadn't noticed much, but perhaps I just wasn't ready to use any informal expressions at that point.

Pros.
1. Listening to Native German Teachers. An additional listening practice that is clear and comprehensible. (You can get this listening practice done by watching YouTubers in relation to your interests, Also, as podcasts).
2. Speaking practice. In 3.5 hour class, you get to speak for only 10 minutes. Having italki lessons can be a good alternative option. or creating questions by yourself out of a lesson and answering them like a teacher is asking you. That's how I will do it. I gained a new perspective.
3. Get an inside view into how formal tests are conducted and written by test organizations. You get used to the format of the test and how to look for certain key information, however, how much does get converted into actually acquiring a language is a debatable question.
4. Attending such a course has allowed me to introduce some of my learning time into an active study, for example, shadowing, practicing with audio sentences in Anki, etc
5. Gaining relevant vocabulary based on real-like situations, for example, giving directions to a stranger over the phone, ordering coffee, etc.
6. Teachers are going through the formal book so as a student I just have to show up. So there is an element of discipline and there is not a long pause between study sessions.

1.Yes, that is a pro, but your coursebook's audio or a podcast will do the same thing. True.
2.Yes, the same impression. Another problem were the classmates. Adults paying for a class, but they had the same mentality as kids. It was't the right kind of atmosphere, where everyone could try the hardest.
3.Depends on the test methodology, but it could be a good thing. But only if the test also comes with a good enough feedback for each student. Then it could be very valuable.
4.Good, nice that it worked for you.
5.This is done in every normal coursebook too.
6.Yes, that's a very good thing. In these schools, teachers are not supposed to just run in circles and let you fall into a chaos (which is often a problem, far too many teachers think they can do better than the coursebook authors, while they definitely cannot). No long pauses between study sessions and a clear stucture are a wonderful thing. But again, doable without a teacher and especially without the classmates too.

My purpose in writing such a post is to get a second opinion when it comes to enrolling for the next level. I am thinking I should just save my money, just buy a formal course book aimed at the B1 level and work my way through. Just cover the missing grammar information that might be covered in the B1 level. For speaking practice just do out-of-ordinary activities and get out of my comfort zone. For example, today I registered for a library card at a public library, and then I went through the whole process in German. The librarian understood me and I understood him. What other activities should I do?

It is a cost-effective option? What do you guys think about it? Thanks in advance for your feedback.


I would just self study, were I in your place. And perhaps paying for live tutoring for speaking practice might be good, you might get much more value for the same money. The real life activities are of course good, but may not be that easy to get in sufficient amounts and variety.

iguanamon wrote:Sometimes, "engaging with native materials" may mean reading, listening to, and watching things we may not choose to do in our languages. I have read "chick-lit", listened to religious podcasts, watched soap operas, comedy shows, listened to dry newscasts, read replies to youtube videos and restaurant/travel reviews, read comic books, etc. When learning a language, nothing is beneath me. I am not too good to read a comic book.
4) Perfection is not possible. This may be hard to accept for some. Yes, we may strive for perfection, but we must accept that we may not reach it. There is, indeed, such a thing as "good enough". C2 level is not perfection. A friend of mine moved to the US at age 19 from France. He has lived in the US for over 50 years. He still has a slight French accent.
5) Humility comes into play by recognizing our imperfection and the futility in thinking we can reach it. Once we accept this, we can work toward being the best we can be given our circumstances.

You are lucky to live in an immersive environment. You can study on your own. There are plenty of resources available for you to learn German. These are not perfect either. You will have to use them as a foundation to learn on your own. You can also work with a private tutor- either in-person or online to help you along the way. You will still have to pay money, but you won't have to work to the level of other students and listen to their mistakes. .


Iguanamon raises a lot of excellent points.

You have a library card, which is perfect. It makes getting resources much cheaper. Especially stuff you wouldn't ever want to buy. For example you may not want to buy Chick-lit, but a few books from the genre might be wonderful for you, so don't hesitate to borrow them. The same is true about other things, including popular science for kids, comic books, self help books, etc. A library is a wonderful resource. Especially as you don't need to know your desires beforehand. Not like when orderning a book online. Just walk in the section, grab a few books that attract your attention, perhaps try the first page, and borrow them :-)

Libraries also tend to have magazine subscriptions. Popular science magazines were very useful to me, when I was learning French to C2! And they might already be accessible at your level.

And yeah, Perfection doesn't exist, don't let the idea damage your progress and your confidence.

Paying a native in Germany might actually be a good idea. There may be a wider offer, you don't have to meet them online, and you get rid of any problems with classmates, if you don't have any.

Le Baron wrote:If a learner isn't already doing other immersive activities like reading and listening to speech audio, they're already putting themselves at a disadvantage. This should be considered a bog-standard requirement for a person attending full-time classes or not and I'd expect anyone who has been studying on their own to be doing those things already. I'd extend this to speaking and interacting, especially if the person is in the TL country. It may be that some people in classes are not self-study learners; that they have signed up from zero or from a previous course experience. It's normal that people would come from different histories.


Yes, this is what it should be like. The problem is, that vast majority of the students in classes doesn't do the other things. They don't study, they don't really immerse, they even speak English instead in the free time, and so on.

I agree that not everyone is a self-study learner and may not have the needed experience. That's why it is such a shame that the group classes give zero guidance on how to change that. Zero homework (homework could also be immersive activities), zero incentives to actually not be so dreadfully slow, zero encouragement to the actually good students. The strategy is the norm=the slow learner. Just like in primary school. Hard work and/or intelligence are not wanted in class, because they make the class less homogenous.

Today my tutor told me I wrote the best essay in the last exam in German. In reality, It was the third time ever I wrote something in German. She told me that I could THINK in the German language on a very high level.

Today I visited the library again. This time I went to the receptionist counter and made an inquiry about the regulations of borrowing DVDs and books. I spoke a few sentences and in reply, I heard a few sentences from a German native speaker.

I will start reading books in the library and there are German natives who are there too. Therefore, I may venture and strike up a conversation.

Congrats on such a feedback! I recommend regular writing, it can really help improve. But still, take all praise with a grain of salt. That's not meant to diminish your achievement. Nope! Just remember that vast majority of tutors has very little experience with motivated learners. With learners actually working hard on the language. With learners that do more than the in class minimum. So, it is great you are the best. But it is always important to look around and realize what you are being compared to.

Yep, your library ideas are the way to go. Reading a lot will help. And you will have stuff to discuss with people. Therefore having conversations valuable for both sides. Perfect!

There are other 15 students in the class who have similar needs to me so they have to speak as well.

That's a good point, there are 15 people who need to be attended. Even though I always felt like most have totally different needs to me. You know, there is always the problem between introverts, who feel like the extroverts are just showing off and not letting them learn enough, and extroverts, who feel the introverts are just lazy passive potatoes and not trying hard enough. There is usually at least one person, who has an annoying personality and can make the class rather unpleasant (in my German class, it was a middle aged italian woman, who turned several speaking practice opportunities into very unpleasant moments full of prejudices, where she was annoyed I didn't want to give her the expected "eastern european" answers. She was very vocal and extroverted, but one of the worst speakers in the class at the same time). There are people, who need different kinds of feedback, people who need more encouragement, and people who need a stricter approach.

A crowd of 15 is simply far too huge to give everyone at least a bit of what they need.

german2k01 wrote:Let me give you my thoughts since you have raised an objection about finding a Golden method. I found a weekend job. I spoke a few sentences with my German boss. I did not look out for compliments, however, he complimented me to be on the right track when he heard my German. I ended up answering an unassisted reading test (part of an employment survey). I solved it on my Boss's computer. There was no internet. I answered all 15 questions correctly. It was written in formal/technical/textbook German. When I was leaving his office, he asked me if I read novels. At this point, I did not touch a single german GRAMMAR book. However, I did L+R method with 8 lengthy novels as per instructions.

Today my German teacher told me I wrote the best essay among the other 15 students. This is the third time ever I wrote about something in German. I have evidence to back it up if the input-based approach is the way to go. if formal classes are the way to go, why does this forum exist in the first place? At least one of those 15 students should have done better than me?

In my workplace, I work with other students who are from South Asia and who have taken formal courses up to the B2 level in Germany. I have yet to see them speaking fluent German. The only person whom I have met fits the definition of working fluency. He worked there for 6 years. In addition, he did 1-year foundational course all subjects were taught in German before getting into a degree program. So you can judge by yourself what level of input is needed to speak fluent/functional German.


As promised, by the end of the year I will post my video speaking German if it sounds gibberish then you are free to criticize Dr. Brown's approach or input-based silent period approach.

When buying a sandwich or a cup of coffee, the conversation revolves around the same repetitive 4 sentences. It is like hearing the same 4 sentences 500 times does that mean I am a functional German speaker? I do not think so.

Whatever vocabulary I have used in the class that is not covered in the A2 formal course book. And my subconscious mind is coming up with full sentences without thinking about grammar rules.


You are doing extremely well! Congratulations! Your job experience sounds wonderful and will surely be a great path to further improvement. A friend of mine took 6 months of university leave to wash the dishes in Germany. He improved enormously, it was time well spent, even if the job itself had nothing to do with his real career. There is nothing like a job to really push your out of the comfort zone and make you improve!

This forum exists, because formal classes suck for most people. A tiny minority "succeeds", which means weak B2 after 6 years of classes (that seems to be the normal pace of the normal evening classes), or more (if they retake leves, which many people do).

The south asians had a harder starting point, I'd say. But nevertheless, they got into their B2 classes somehow. If they cannot speak, then it just shows another weakness of the classes: you pay to progress, and you sit in the class to progress to the next level. You cannot get kicked out or forced to retake a level, because the private school would surely lose far too many students because of this. That's why you, after formally finishing A2, are better than them, formally having finished B2.

I am looking forward to your video!

Yep, I agree about the sandwich/coffee thing. people mention this example all the time. Yes, it is an easy situation to get to. Yes, it is valuable at A1. Nope, it won't help you get to B1 or further up. Getting into those B1 situation in the foreign country is much harder. But a job is one of the good ways.
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Re: Formal Language School in Germany -- Pros And cons!

Postby garyb » Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:14 am

I can't comment on the school idea except state the obvious: good classes are extremely useful, bad ones are a waste of time and money, and it can be hard to tell if they'll be good before you go. And sometimes half the problem is the other students, who are often there more as a way to kill some time and get out of the house in the evening rather than because they're serious about learning the language, but I'd expect that to be less of a problem for German classes in Germany as opposed to, say, Italian classes in the UK!

I did want to pick up on the point about supposedly not needing classes or exchange partners when living in the country. I've had quite a few in-person language exchange partners who seeked an exchange because despite living and working in an English-speaking country they just weren't making much progress with their English beyond the aforementioned sandwich and coffee level and often much of their interaction was with other non-native speakers. Or sometimes they've already been very competent speakers but have just wanted to improve specific areas. They've tended to be the most serious and helpful partners, since they're keen to not just be able to get by but to actually learn to speak the language well.
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Re: Formal Language School in Germany -- Pros And cons!

Postby rdearman » Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:22 am

garyb wrote:I did want to pick up on the point about supposedly not needing classes or exchange partners when living in the country. I've had quite a few in-person language exchange partners who seeked an exchange because despite living and working in an English-speaking country they just weren't making much progress with their English beyond the aforementioned sandwich and coffee level and often much of their interaction was with other non-native speakers. Or sometimse they've already been very competent speakers but have just wanted to improve specific areas. They've tended to be the most serious and helpful partners, since they're keen to not just be able to get by but to actually learn to speak the language well.

This.

I do a regular language exchange with an Italian woman who lives in the UK. She cannot get enough practice and people she speaks with will not correct her because the think it is rude or she will be offended.
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Re: Formal Language School in Germany -- Pros And cons!

Postby DaveAgain » Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:20 am

rdearman wrote: and people she speaks with will not correct her because the think it is rude or she will be offended.
Yup. :-)

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