Steve Kaufmann: Don't Try To Memorize Vocabulary

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Steve Kaufmann: Don't Try To Memorize Vocabulary

Postby Kraut » Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:36 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQZYL39JEFo

Don't Try To Memorize Vocabulary

You are so spot on, Steve! I approach it much like you - I never try to memorize. I get exposure, I get input, and whatever sticks, sticks, whatever doesn't - it will next time. 0 worries, great results. Being relaxed and not stressing over memorization helps so much. What a great message to share! :)
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Re: Steve Kaufmann: Don't Try To Memorize Vocabulary

Postby Iversen » Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:27 pm

I do my studies in the diametrally opposite way - I spend much of my language learning time trying to memorize vocabulary and to some extent grammar. And because I do that the situation is that when I do get exposure, it's already 'next time' and it counts as an extra repetition - and as we probably all can agree repetitions serve to make things stick.

The big difference is probably that some people like to study in an ultra systematic way where they amass data like a farmer harvesting a field, while others have the mindset of of a hunter-gatherer. This may also be efficient if you can get sufficient input and keep up the eager interest in listening, but when I listen extensively to something I hardly ever remember anything except the broad lines - rarely specific words or expressions. My knowledge is the result of deliberate memorization of data, and because I can see that it works for me I like to do it.
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Re: Steve Kaufmann: Don't Try To Memorize Vocabulary

Postby desafiar » Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:19 am

Language acquisition is memorization, vocabulary being committed to memory through exposure and recall. Steve's point seems to be that the memorization process should be through random exposure without any forced effort of recall.

I want the exposure to occur as rapidly as possible, thereby increasing the speed at which I'm able to recognize vocabulary. To do that I'm getting as much random exposure as possible and augmenting it with a deliberate effort to increase exposure beyond that. I've found that doing so, it has helped me retain vocabulary much quicker than if I were to only rely on random.

I'm purposefully controlling my exposure by focusing on verbs. Every time I come across a verb that is previously unknown to me, I'll collect it for repletion through Anki, both the infinitive and example sentences using its conjugated forms. For some verbs I may have only one sentence, others several. By doing so I'm increasing exposure and not fully relying on the randomness of contact with it.

This gives me some control of the quantity of my exposure and has increased my retention by a noticeable degree since I've started doing it.

Steve's website has a limited version of flash cards. I seem to recall in one of his older videos that he doesn't use them. His method obviously works for himself, and I like and have used his website, but I'm using all tools I have to improve my internalization of vocabulary.
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Re: Steve Kaufmann: Don't Try To Memorize Vocabulary

Postby Kraut » Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:15 am

I posted Kaufmann's video because it struck me as controversial. It contradicts what neuroscience has come up with on initiating the learning process and consolidating it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsIqOs41TV4
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Re: Steve Kaufmann: Don't Try To Memorize Vocabulary

Postby jeffers » Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:24 am

I think the specific problem Kauffman is addressing (and I say this without having watched the video) comes from large numbers of language learners who do very little other than memorization and then wonder why they can't speak or understand anything. I know when I first started learning languages solo I spent the majority (60%?) of my time making and reviewing flashcards, without doing very much to actually use the words I had learned. What I should have done was to do some reading, listening, speaking, writing, or any combination, using the words I was studying. I have even seen mention of people learning thousands of vocabulary items without any other exposure or interaction with the language.

And so Kauffman presumably the other way, recommending no specific memorization of vocabulary. It's a bit like people saying that "textbooks don't work" because many people who use a textbook do nothing else. The better recommendation would be for people to learn core vocabulary, but also to seek out ways to use the vocabulary they are learning.
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Re: Steve Kaufmann: Don't Try To Memorize Vocabulary

Postby Sae » Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:04 pm

I think he makes a fair point. I struggle with the vocabulary learning approach in the sense of "try to learn 10 words a day", I find I retain words better the more that I try to use them, so it becomes more natural. I like the way I've learned Vietnamese, we've covered how the language works, and a lot of the practice has been in applying the lessons learned rather than focusing on specific vocabulary aside from what is necessary to apply those lessons. Now that I am in the process of practicing conversation and I'm finding words stick better because I'm having to think about them. And I find there's words I've forgotten I've already learn from previous lessons, like a lot of the adjectives from an earlier module, but now I am having to describe things in conversation, I'm going back to those adjectives so I can use them.

One thing my tutor does, which has helped is, when we learn new words, we learn them by related a group. So if I remember one word in the group, I can start to remember the other words. EG: I learn the word for 'doctor' and we're talking about jobs, and using it in a sentence, I can also learn 'Nurse' and 'Hospital'. But then 'doctor' is linguistically similar to 'artist' and 'singer'. So if I forget how to say 'singer' I remember it shares an origin with 'doctor' and then I go "Ahah! That's what it was" when it jogs my memory. If I struggle, he'll throw in a hint, such as a related word or if I am experimenting and trying new words, I might ask, "how do I say 'all the time'" and he says, "you should be able to figure it out", I know to look at things I already know and try to figure out how to communicate the same idea. This I think is more valuable than him just telling me and then me memorising it, because now I've forced myself into connecting two ideas together and it also helps build my instinct for saying other things I don't know how to say.

Of course, it all works differently from everyone, I fall into the category of people with poor memory. So trying to memorise vocabulary just doesn't work for me. I've tried and it doesn't stick. I've always been a person who learns better by doing and also by making mistakes.
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Re: Steve Kaufmann: Don't Try To Memorize Vocabulary

Postby Iversen » Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:21 pm

I doubt that there are many language learners who only do memorization, and it would definitely not be enough. Some of my wordlists are based on new words from my study texts, and there are so many of those words that I hardly have time to do lists based directly on a dictionary, but as soon as I have passed the initial stage I tend to favour wordlists based directly on dictionaries. But in dictionaries you mostly see infinitives and nominatives and other basic forms, and you need to be pushed into using the other forms.

So for this reason (and many others) it is necessary to get in touch with real language as soon as possible, and for some the trick to get this is to use the simple sentences in a text book, and for me it is the use of bilingual texts. But there is a problem: since you can't understand anything much when you are a beginner you have to work intensively with short texts or bits of speech - understanding longer texts or long rants on the fly is only possible when you already have some hardcore knowledge about the language. And that's where memorization helps because you can do that before you can understand aught...
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Re: Steve Kaufmann: Don't Try To Memorize Vocabulary

Postby german2k01 » Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:02 pm

The best retention strategy that I have seen working and employed almost by every German. It is to use my active vocabulary to express their thoughts. I am surprised to see that I am able to understand them even though I have no idea about what grammar tenses they are using. That again confirms Dr.Krashen hypothesis. Traditional language class teaches the target language the other way around that is to teach a grammar rule first and then practice it for eternity. I am curious to know what kind of benefits learners derive from listening or reading if they have already memorized the first 5000 common words or so via the Anki deck or vocabulary lists. Their comprehension rate must be super fast, I suppose?
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Re: Steve Kaufmann: Don't Try To Memorize Vocabulary

Postby Le Baron » Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:53 pm

Most language classes these days are light on grammar. They teach talking, words, interacting, copying. Not practising grammar rules for eternity, or at all that much.
The exception seems to be official French classes, which I haven't taken so I'm not speaking from experience, but knowing how invested the French school system is in torturing students with grammar, it may have rubbed-off into the teaching of French.
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Re: Steve Kaufmann: Don't Try To Memorize Vocabulary

Postby Iversen » Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:46 pm

german2k01 wrote:I am curious to know what kind of benefits learners derive from listening or reading if they have already memorized the first 5000 common words or so via the Anki deck or vocabulary lists. Their comprehension rate must be super fast, I suppose?


A couple of evenings ago I used an article about a museum in Ukraine as goodnight reading material, and I hardly had to refer to the translation (it was a bilingual printout). I haven't tested my Ukrainian vocabulary, but it might already be at the 5000 headwords level, and the reason that it is at that level is that I have done my stint with wordlists. After less than four months of study where I also have done other things (like studying ichtyological nomenclature, just to mention one thing) I'm fairly satisfied with my level, and it's precisely now where I almost can hack my way through a standard non-fiction text that I also can start having fun with the language - and maybe absorb some of the idiomatics and grammar through extensive reading.

As for being able to understand German without caring about tenses: if you haven't got a clue about the tenses the Germans use, your understanding will by definition be incomplete - it's as simple as that! But German is actually not that hard to understand: they have a a present, a simple past and a compound past - basically the same tenses as in English. With some context and simple situations you may be able to guess the correct tempora, and when you have been doing this for some time you'll probably also have learnt to recognize the verbal forms and maybe even use them in your own speech. But you could have arrived at that stage after just an hour or two if you had had a peek into a grammar book (even one of the small language guides would suffice for the purpose), and then you would have been better equipped to decode the formulations of the natives and learn from your observations.
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