Other ways of improving speaking skills apart from…speaking?

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thevagrant88
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Other ways of improving speaking skills apart from…speaking?

Postby thevagrant88 » Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:18 am

I’ve been studying Spanish for over six years now and I’m still not happy with my speaking skills. For context, I’ve read a dozen or so books in Spanish, watched films and tv shows in Spanish (with Spanish subtitles), played a ton of video games in Spanish, etc. I’m not completely unhappy with my knowledge of Spanish, but I feel like my skills are kinda crap. It’s only when I’m spending of ton of time in the language that I feel more comfortable just jumping into it. Even then, the vocabulary and expressions I use and complexity of my sentences isn’t at all reflective of when I could understand if roles were reversed. Typically this can be alleviated somewhat if I find myself speaking in a full blown conversation, as in it takes me a few minutes of warming up for my brain to comfortably switch into Spanish mode. But just jumping into it at the drop of a hat? Typically when I need it the most? Forget it. And yes, I know nerves are 100% a factor.

The biggest hurdle I have when it comes to getting more dedicated speaking practice is that when the opportunity to use Spanish comes up, it is sporadic and unexpected. I could go weeks without actually needing to use Spanish at work or in my personal life. But when I do, I typically really could use it.

The obvious thing would be to set up time with a tutor or language partner, but my schedule is not consistent Even if I did, it would be once a week and I’d absolutely want to supplement it somehow anyway.

So what can I do from the comfort of my home? How can I improve my ability to just jump into Spanish rather than having to warm up to it? The only thing I can think of that’s ever helped, and maybe this is weird, has been studying another language. Spending some time with Japanese, in my case, seemed to do the brain warm up for me (if only I could whip out Genki for a few minutes at a moments notice). Even then, once I get back to my American Englishy day, that benefit mostly vanishes. Has any one else had this experience? Could journaling help? Talking to my pets? Perhaps sell my soul or try hard narcotics?

Any guidance would honestly be greatly appreciated.
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Re: Other ways of improving speaking skills apart from…speaking?

Postby Kraut » Fri Jun 24, 2022 1:18 am

Recently I came across a Sprachheld video in German where he suggests something novel that can be called "partial theme related fluency". He doesn't go into details but I see it as native fluency that you reach in a certain subject/theme that you have studied intensively:

Themenflüssigkeit

Deutlich schneller eine Fremdsprache fließend sprechen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Buf_Bp_Z_6A&t=0s



Superficial (partly) comprehensible input will not get you there, but intensive memorization and repetition.
Here is a text that I have translated, back-translated (via the bidirectional method) memorized and repeated many times, I know it by heart, a hundred per cent for a few days, then it starts fading away and needs repetition.

I can call up my texts from memory whenever and where I want.



I think two more texts on the use of cellular phones would give me theme-related fluency.
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Re: Other ways of improving speaking skills apart from…speaking?

Postby CDR » Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:14 am

Boris Shekhtman has a book "How to Improve Your Foreign Language Immediately". The title is very misleading, the subtext is "Foreign Language Communication Tools."

I feel the book has two themes.
1. Learning to work around the limitations of your knowledge without a native speaker (of your TL) noticing.
2. Ways to practice/improve your speaking.

Stop me if you already know the book, but I think the concept of "Islands" would be helpful for this situation. Islands are intentionally created monologues (They're not very long though) about topics you are likely to speak about. You intentionally write down and practice/memorize your islands, so in conversations you can use them without thinking.

Like an introduction, but for a variety of topics important to you.

But, part of having to suddenly use the language is emotional/shock

My first thought would be to try carrying around flash cards with topics on them (or maybe your already created islands?) and a phone app or other device that sounds an alarm randomly.

Whenever that alarm goes off, you must stop and speak one of your islands from memory/talk about a topic from a flashcard prompt. That is, the flashcard just says "Language Learning Island" or "The weather - 2 minutes" and you have to take it from there.

Maybe a little embarrassing to do in public, just put your phone on silent and pretend you're talking to your tutor?

If your alarm sounds like a ringtone, you're good to go. Pretend to answer and then start talking about your topic :lol:
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Re: Other ways of improving speaking skills apart from…speaking?

Postby BeaP » Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:18 am

I'm in the same situation, I can relate.

I've been experimenting with something similar to Sprachheld's recommendation because of the DELE: I choose a topic, read articles, watch videos, try to compile an expression and word bank. Talk about the topic to myself, write essays. It's a lot of time and work.

Another thing I've been trying to do: find good dialogues and listen to them several times, until I know them by heart. How to choose dialogues? In my experience C-level monolingual textbooks have very good materials, I use CdeC1 and Vitamina C1. Although these book are a real drudgery to study, the texts give a good sample of useful language. The audio materials and the transcriptions for both are free to download. I'd be extremely happy with something like the Communication Progressive for French, but it doesn't exist for Spanish.

I think the problem (in my case) is caused by learning through input, I skipped textbook work, so my passive vocabulary is much larger than my active vocabulary. I also have serious gaps in grammar, like I don't know all the important irregular verb forms. My goal is to activate and then automatise a limited number of useful expressions (that's enough for speaking).

To be honest, I'm struggling. But it's not due to the wrong approach or method, it's due to the fact the I got out of the habit of learning in the sense of memorising. (I left university more than 20 years ago.) And I find it very hard to get back. I start to learn and I know that my memory fails me, I'm really inefficient, and I get tired very easily. Although I know that it's normal, that it's like exercise (sport), you need to get into the habit again, and train to get better, I feel frustrated and irritated. I'm quite convinced that the 'input strategy' is so popular because it's easy, passive and fun. I took up French again partly to get into the studying habit. With Spanish I'm in double trouble: I feel stupid learning from textbooks at C2.

Another problem: I don't want to give the impression of a competent Spanish speaker, I want to be one. So these 'islands' and 'topics' don't really help me in the long run.

I'd definitely need to go back to coursebooks, do the speaking exercises, study the texts and dialogues in depth. And speak with a native speaker when there's a possibility.

Writing also helps, doing exercises in any kind of Spanish textbook (it can be grammar) also helps. The important thing is that it has to be active. Reading and listening won't take you to your goal, even if you takes notes of the new words and study them. You don't need those words, you need words you studied years ago, but remained on the passive / almost active / hard to recall level. My stammering has two causes: a lot of words and expressions are in this category, gaps in grammar. (Good grammar drills would also help me.)

When I talk to our dogs (a Russian and a German breed :D ) in Spanish, they get either confused or bored. It's not really motivating. I rather talk to myself, repeat things after the audio, summarise what I've heard. I've never really liked shadowing, but I might try it again.
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Re: Other ways of improving speaking skills apart from…speaking?

Postby DaveAgain » Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:52 am

thevagrant88 wrote:So what can I do from the comfort of my home? How can I improve my ability to just jump into Spanish rather than having to warm up to it?
1. You could tell your kettle about something interesting that's happened to you that day when you get in.
2. You could read aloud, or summarise the highpoints of an article/chapter.
3. You could talk to your television, become the speaking fourth wall in a sit-com/soap that you like.
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Re: Other ways of improving speaking skills apart from…speaking?

Postby jeffers » Fri Jun 24, 2022 8:13 am

BeaP wrote:Another problem: I don't want to give the impression of a competent Spanish speaker, I want to be one. So these 'islands' and 'topics' don't really help me in the long run.


I understand what you're getting at: someone could memorize a group of language islands and pretend to be competent. However, used properly they are supposed to help you more in the long run, not be used as a substitute for competence. The point of language islands is that they are a starting point, because nobody is going to suddenly be fully competent in all areas of conversation. As you continue to practice and learn, you should be more and more able to "swim freely", but the language islands will always be a place of safety you can return to when you feel like you're getting over your head.

I was going to suggest two ways to improve speaking skills apart from speaking: 1. writing and 2. shadowing.

1. Since speaking and writing are both productive skills, working on writing should be a good way to practice expressing yourself in the language. If you spend your time planning and writing language islands, more the better. Personally, I do far less writing in my target languages than I would like to do.

2. Shadowing is a good way of getting your tongue used to the language, getting a proper feel for the rhythms, etc. Before my last visit to India I spent time shadowing Assimil every day for 4 or 5 weeks, and I was surprised how much more prepared I was to just jump into conversation than I had been when I lived there! So, although I still don't shadow very often, I have become a believer in the method as preparation for a language voyage.
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Re: Other ways of improving speaking skills apart from…speaking?

Postby BeaP » Fri Jun 24, 2022 8:52 am

jeffers wrote: Shadowing is a good way of getting your tongue used to the language, getting a proper feel for the rhythms, etc. Before my last visit to India I spent time shadowing Assimil every day for 4 or 5 weeks, and I was surprised how much more prepared I was to just jump into conversation than I had been when I lived there! So, although I still don't shadow very often, I have become a believer in the method as preparation for a language voyage.

Thanks for your comment on the 'islands'. Do you have any idea why shadowing produces better results than simple repetition? I try to do it every now and then, but I always give it up because it's hard, and I can't imagine how it could benefit me. What changes if I stick to it long enough?
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Re: Other ways of improving speaking skills apart from…speaking?

Postby Le Baron » Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:11 am

BeaP wrote:Another problem: I don't want to give the impression of a competent Spanish speaker, I want to be one. So these 'islands' and 'topics' don't really help me in the long run.

I read your longer post up there and thought: 'wait! Didn't I write this?' It's very close to my Spanish situation. I was a bit exhausted from previous language work and also other projects, so I coasted somewhat and relied upon input in the way you describe. As a result I haven't properly tied a visual understanding of all the important verb forms to listening. It's a bit of a nuisance. And I agree that input, whilst necessary, can easily lead to over-reliance in the hope that it just produces magic results on its own.
I agree with Jeffers though that islands are good in both the short and long-term. Once you get the reflex reaction down using common structures that are memorised, it is probably easier to recreate free-form sentences on-the-fly. As we know using a language like a jazz improviser takes a lot of time and practise...
BeaP wrote:Thanks for your comment on the 'islands'. Do you have any idea why shadowing produces better results than simple repetition? I try to do it every now and then, but I always give it up because it's hard, and I can't imagine how it could benefit me. What changes if I stick to it long enough?

Yes, I'd like to know too. I do shadowing, but also just feel like a parrot. I feel it's only good for checking and developing pronunciation, not as a help for building your own sentences unaided.
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Re: Other ways of improving speaking skills apart from…speaking?

Postby jeffers » Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:33 am

BeaP wrote:
jeffers wrote: Shadowing is a good way of getting your tongue used to the language, getting a proper feel for the rhythms, etc. Before my last visit to India I spent time shadowing Assimil every day for 4 or 5 weeks, and I was surprised how much more prepared I was to just jump into conversation than I had been when I lived there! So, although I still don't shadow very often, I have become a believer in the method as preparation for a language voyage.

Thanks for your comment on the 'islands'. Do you have any idea why shadowing produces better results than simple repetition? I try to do it every now and then, but I always give it up because it's hard, and I can't imagine how it could benefit me. What changes if I stick to it long enough?


That's a good question. When I first heard about shadowing I thought it seemed odd, and I reckoned repitition would be better on the basis that you can actually listen carefully to the text before repeating it, whereas with shadowing you aren't really listening. However, I think the benefit of shadowing comes from the fact that there's no proper break (e.g. the listening part of repetition), so it is more like real speech. Repitition is obviously better for practicing pronunciation, but shadowing is an effective exercise for developing fluency and automaticity (is that a word?) This is also because shadowing requires more quick thinking than repitition, more mental engagement, which are skills needed during conversation in the wild. Arguelles recommended using Assimil for shadowing, I think because the dialogues are a good length, they use quite natural language, and if you are studying the textbook the content is quite familiar and clearly understood. I can't imagine shadowing something like a news report or a podcast.

So there's my theory of why it works. When I used Pimsleur, I found that when I got to my first experiences of actually speaking I was almost expecting someone to repeat the correct phrase after me.
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Re: Other ways of improving speaking skills apart from…speaking?

Postby Le Baron » Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:42 am

jeffers wrote:However, I think the benefit of shadowing comes from the fact that there's no proper break (e.g. the listening part of repetition), so it is more like real speech. Repitition is obviously better for practicing pronunciation, but shadowing is an effective exercise for developing fluency and automaticity (is that a word?) This is also because shadowing requires more quick thinking than repitition, more mental engagement, which are skills needed during conversation in the wild.


This was the problem for me when the other fellow mentioned something similar in another thread: listening/repeating without engagement or whatever it was. To me shadowing feels like effort with no real thinking, because it is just a repeat-what-I-say scenario with no regard as to what the words mean. In actual speech you have to be cognisant of what you say and mean and it means having control over things, over word choice and what you want to say. I still don't know what shadowing is supposed to do for this, apart from getting your vocal apparatus familiar with forming sounds.
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