Other ways of improving speaking skills apart from…speaking?

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Re: Other ways of improving speaking skills apart from…speaking?

Postby Le Baron » Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:53 pm

thevagrant88 wrote:Scheduled a half hour session on iTalki for 5 bucks. I was 100% overthinking this.

Money talks (and in any language you want on iTalki).
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Re: Other ways of improving speaking skills apart from…speaking?

Postby luke » Sat Jun 25, 2022 3:00 am

BeaP wrote:In my mind these topics are kind of related: there's the 'input' group, the 'digital' group, the 'Count von Count in Sesame Street' group, and we all have the same problem.

I also agree with Luke's comment from the other thread that there's a chance that we can find an easier or more enjoyable method, but this chance is extremely small.

I had to look up 'Count von Count'. Having done so, I'm guilty of participating in the three groups mentioned.

On the comment in the other thread. What I meant to say was, reading and listening and shadowing and making flash cards for some fancy pants book like Cien años de soledad may not be particularly helpful for getting started speaking, but if it's engaging, perhaps you're already accomplishing your goal as well as moving forward.

Most of us are not looking for the Holy Grail most efficient, effective method. Rather, we look for what can we do that keeps us engaged and on the path. Hopefully we're on a path that takes us in the direction of our goals, even if it's not a shortcut.

I'm reminded of travelling and reading the placards at historic sites or the written language that accompanies a lot of museum exhibits. Most people I've traveled with or gone to a museum with just want to look and aren't that interested in what someone had to say about what we're looking at. Myself, I like reading thoughtful, informed prose about what's before me. It gives an orientation and expands the experience. It makes the journey feel unhurried and pleasant.

Language learning should be unhurried and pleasant. It takes time and it's not all fun. Count von counting, tweaking your digital documents, increasing TL input are just part of the journey.

I recognize our goals and methods are often quite distinct. Some are methods are clearly better and some goals seem saner.

Shekhtman's How to Improve Your Foreign Language IMMEDIATELY has some good ideas (although they involve speaking). E.G., say what you can say and say a lot of it.
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Re: Other ways of improving speaking skills apart from…speaking?

Postby lingohot » Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:33 am

Le Baron wrote:How can it be for 'very' advanced learners? To be 'very' advanced surely means you're already producing the language in an advanced way, and not needing to be fed stuff at all. Before that you're an intermediate learner. What's the point of burning away time repeating a load of stuff you already know how to say??


A very advanced learner is still a learner. When I wrote "very advanced learner" I had in mind a person who already understands the language very well but maybe still lacks active skills (which is quite common, since passive skills usually exceed active skills, and the learner in question would still be entitled to be called "advanced learner" I guess).

Shadowing is an exercise used at some interpretation schools to improve fluency (I guess you could quite rightly call those students "advanced"). Here's a description of shadowing by a NATO senior interpreter who recommends shadowing for interpreters:

https://interpretertrainingresources.eu/language/shadowing/


Shadowing is useful into all the interpreter’s active languages, ‘A’ and ‘B’, and can be employed to correct and refine a multitude of interpretation weaknesses – accent, delivery, voice quality, vocal range, emphasis, ‘cleanliness’ of rendition, confidence etc. etc.


Another article of the same author:

https://interpretertrainingresources.eu/language/a-few-thoughts-on-b-languages/


What are the steps to be undertaken, and the traps to avoid, for the addition or improvement of a second active language ?
(...)
a) Here are a few useful exercises :
(...)
Spend many hours in the booth shadowing an able and fluent speaker of the target language. Using MP3 files, audio cassettes or CDs, choose speakers with an excellent mastery of their mother tongue, without strong regional accents, and with a gift of oratory which allows full expression of the native cadences of the language. Shadowing initially involves repeating the words of the speaker without modification. This allows the interpreter’s brain and speech organs to reproduce the sounds and rythms of the ‘B’ language without conscious mental effort, and begins to create the ‘physiological memory’ acquired by children speaking their own tongue. This will require many tens of hours of actual speech production.


Personally I think shadowing can be helpful for advanced learners who already have great passive skills as a first step to develop speaking skills. I don't know if it really works/works for everyone/works well/works at all, but I would assume it has a certain effect. At least, it helps to listen to the target language in a very concentrated fashion and to spot any weaknesses in listening comprehension.
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Re: Other ways of improving speaking skills apart from…speaking?

Postby BeaP » Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:09 am

luke wrote:What I meant to say was, reading and listening and shadowing and making flash cards for some fancy pants book like Cien años de soledad may not be particularly helpful for getting started speaking, but if it's engaging, perhaps you're already accomplishing your goal as well as moving forward.

I understood what you wanted to say, I just wanted to add that although we seem to have different approaches, our problems are the same. I'm not looking for the Holy Grail tool either, I'm looking for something that I'm able to stick to in the long run. That can mean pleasant, enjoyable, easy, efficient, anything. Anything, that makes me go on, helps me establish a routine that I can keep. I've been doing this search for a long time and I haven't found anything that's much better than the things I had at the start. So personally I often have the impression that all this searching is mostly in vain, that I would've learned 3 more languages up to C1 at least by now if I sticked to the 'traditional' / obvious ways and learned 1 page (!) every day. I'm honestly happy if you can't relate to this problem.
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Re: Other ways of improving speaking skills apart from…speaking?

Postby Le Baron » Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:19 am

lingohot wrote:Here's a description of shadowing by a NATO senior interpreter who recommends shadowing for interpreters:
Shadowing is useful into all the interpreter’s active languages, ‘A’ and ‘B’, and can be employed to correct and refine a multitude of interpretation weaknesses – accent, delivery, voice quality, vocal range, emphasis, ‘cleanliness’ of rendition, confidence etc. etc.

[...]allows the interpreter’s brain and speech organs to reproduce the sounds and rythms of the ‘B’ language without conscious mental effort, and begins to create the ‘physiological memory’ acquired by children speaking their own tongue. This will require many tens of hours of actual speech production.[/i]

Well this is a relief, he confirmed exactly what I thought it is for (in this or another thread running currently): accent, 'physiological memory', delivery...allows the interpreter’s brain and speech organs to reproduce the sounds.' No links to comprehension and that it is something done without 'mental effort'. Sound acquisition.
lingohot wrote:Personally I think shadowing can be helpful for advanced learners who already have great passive skills as a first step to develop speaking skills. I don't know if it really works/works for everyone/works well/works at all, but I would assume it has a certain effect. At least, it helps to listen to the target language in a very concentrated fashion and to spot any weaknesses in listening comprehension.

Likely for any learners. Who probably ought to read out loud for themselves as soon as possible, at least late beginner. And try to follow sound system examples as 'guided production, at least for basic material. Since if learners are following a vague notion of learning somewhat as a child acquires language, they' ought to know that children make all kinds of vocal attempts long before the words are properly rendered. So these exaggerated 'silent periods' are more to do with adult shame than any theory of production.
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Re: Other ways of improving speaking skills apart from…speaking?

Postby lingohot » Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:52 am

Le Baron wrote:
lingohot wrote:Here's a description of shadowing by a NATO senior interpreter who recommends shadowing for interpreters:
Shadowing is useful into all the interpreter’s active languages, ‘A’ and ‘B’, and can be employed to correct and refine a multitude of interpretation weaknesses – accent, delivery, voice quality, vocal range, emphasis, ‘cleanliness’ of rendition, confidence etc. etc.

[...]allows the interpreter’s brain and speech organs to reproduce the sounds and rythms of the ‘B’ language without conscious mental effort, and begins to create the ‘physiological memory’ acquired by children speaking their own tongue. This will require many tens of hours of actual speech production.[/i]

Well this is a relief, he confirmed exactly what I thought it is for (in this or another thread running currently): accent, 'physiological memory', delivery...allows the interpreter’s brain and speech organs to reproduce the sounds.' No links to comprehension and that it is something done without 'mental effort'. Sound acquisition.


He actually confirmed exactly what I had written, i.e. that it is an exercise for very advanced learners, which you denied. All of the highlighted above factors contribute to improving speaking skills. Creating physiological memory (training your speech apparatus to produce the sounds of the target language in the respective order) is a crucial step in language acquisition and towards fluency. And again, without comprehension you cannot shadow, unless you're really just imitating a string of incomprehensible sounds, which would be totally pointless. (Which is why I had written that to my mind it's an exercise for very advanced learners that already understand the language rather than for the beginner's or the intermediate stages, comprehension not being the goal of shadowing, albeit it can help to discover any weaknesses.)

lingohot wrote:Personally I think shadowing can be helpful for advanced learners who already have great passive skills as a first step to develop speaking skills. I don't know if it really works/works for everyone/works well/works at all, but I would assume it has a certain effect. At least, it helps to listen to the target language in a very concentrated fashion and to spot any weaknesses in listening comprehension.

Likely for any learners. Who probably ought to read out loud for themselves as soon as possible, at least late beginner. And try to follow sound system examples as 'guided production, at least for basic material. Since if learners are following a vague notion of learning somewhat as a child acquires language, they' ought to know that children make all kinds of vocal attempts long before the words are properly rendered. So these exaggerated 'silent periods' are more to do with adult shame than any theory of production.


This is why I said it can be a first step for someone who's passive skills are already very high but who has no speaking practice for whatever reason.
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Re: Other ways of improving speaking skills apart from…speaking?

Postby Le Baron » Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:05 am

lingohot wrote:He actually confirmed exactly what I had written, i.e. that it is an exercise for very advanced learners, which you denied.

I didn't deny it, I only questioned it. and I still think it's questionable. Shadowing as described is good for all learners. Not when you're already well on the way to functionality (which is achieved by speaking anyway). My chief concern - though I think it is another thread(s), not this one - is that it is a vocal apparatus trainer and doesn't facilitate actual comprehension of any words i.e. meaning.
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Re: Other ways of improving speaking skills apart from…speaking?

Postby luke » Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:07 am

Le Baron wrote:So these exaggerated 'silent periods' are more to do with adult shame than any theory of production.

They could be.

They could also be a method to acknowledge, hey, I know what's being said. I know how to say it in my native language. I hear the sounds, but I know there's a stereotypical accent for people from my neck of the woods. I'd like to sound better than that. I may need more exposure to keep the sound acquisition door open or I'll end up with the stereotypical accent that I'm trying to avoid.

Avoiding a stereotypical accent doesn't mean "perfect" or "native like".

Also, some learners are lucky and their stereotypical accent carries cachet. Think British accent in the U.S. ;)

Back to your original point, it may not be pride or shame that is erecting a psychological wall to speaking. It may be aesthetics.

One difference between child and adult learning is that children tend to recover from mishaps with less damage. A bicycle accident for a 6 year old may be forgotten in a few hours. For an adult, an accident may leave a mark. With language learning, the higher neural plasticity of youth is a similar protection against mistakes. Adults may take longer to get over their misconceptions.
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Re: Other ways of improving speaking skills apart from…speaking?

Postby rdearman » Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:31 am

luke wrote:Also, some learners are lucky and their stereotypical accent carries cachet. Think British accent in the U.S. ;)

Had to look up cachet. If that is the case why do all villains in America films have a British accent? Or am I the only one who has noticed this particular stereotype?
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Re: Other ways of improving speaking skills apart from…speaking?

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:58 pm

rdearman wrote:Had to look up cachet. If that is the case why do all villains in America films have a British accent? Or am I the only one who has noticed this particular stereotype?


Article in The Atlantic:
Why Do Cartoon Villains Speak in Foreign Accents?

I guess this sums it up:
The most wicked foreign accent of all was British English, according to the study.


On the other hand, spy thrillers usually have a British hero and a villain with a German or Slavic accent.
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