Learning plan, opinions wanted

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LupCenușiu
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Learning plan, opinions wanted

Postby LupCenușiu » Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:35 pm

Hello. I was lurking around for a bit, discovered first HTLAL last year, then this forum. Decided to use a practical topic as introductory post, I never liked standard introductions anyway. So, without further ado, here it is.

I intend to improve my foreign languages knowledge, both by resurrecting and augmenting a few learned years ago (mostly in school or not in an organized manner) and by learning a few more. So, I tried to devise a plan that can be applied as a general guide, regardless of language . I am perfectly aware that there is no perfect plan (hence I write this one on a forum and not on two big stone tablets), that everyone learns in a different manner and that, probably, the answers to my questions placed at the end of this post can be found somewhere here and/or on HTLAL. However, although I spent too much time on both forums, I always find myself browsing for hours various topics, loosely related, to the point I'm reading about learning much more than I'm learning about a specific topic. Procrastination in fancy wrappings is still procrastination.

The plan has 4 phases, looking like this:

Phase 1: initial contact
Phase 2: base consolidation
Phase 3: improved input
Phase 4: output

Phase 1

The purpose is to get acquainted with the language (or act as a refreshing phase for a forgotten one). Goal: decent pronunciation, basic vocabulary, general familiarity with the language.
Tools: some YT videos about pronunciation, phonemes, language rhythm. Pimsleur 1-3, Assimil, 50languages.com site. Start with learning the writing system (if is a new one), sounds of language, then use Pimsleur + Assimil, and include extra vocabulary from 50languages. For a forgotten language, 2 lessons/day each. For a new one, if is really difficult, starting Assimil +50languages after finishing Pimsleur, else 1 lesson/day of each. Getting new words into ANKI. As a supplement, YT videos in the target language, increasing duration and trying to pick some topics I'm interested in (this doesn't count as learning, just additional enforcing of core method).


Phase 2

The purpose is to expand over the base of phase 1. Goal: supplement vocabulary and get a grasp on grammar.
Tools: Michel Thomas (if available), one solid course covering grammar, a core 5k vocabulary deck. Start with MT then work through that course, while completing vocabulary with the words unknown (expecting 1-2k are already acquired from phase 1). Most likely, Iversen lists to learn them, ANKI to fixate in memory. Continue with videos as supplement.


Phase 3

Ideally, at this point can ditch training wheels, and focus on native content reading. Not much to say about it, internet articles followed by books, trying to keep topics I'm not interested in to a minimum. Also, that's the place where I intend to experiment a bit with L/R, I found the discussions about this method quite interesting.

Phase 4

With a decent base built on input, output has to be trained. The details are still TBD, I like to go one step at the time, so I paid more attention to the first 2 phases.


That's the general plan. Now, questions:

1. What is your opinion about this? Am I missing some obvious thing that should be a part of it? Too superficial? Too complex? Redundant parts? Balance issues? Dubious order?

2. Heard some good things about FSI/ DLI. However, I believe courses are a means to an end, and while I read some very interesting stories of people chewing through half of library of courses, I have no intention to try to duplicate their feats. So, is there a place for this type of courses in the plan? Would be an improvement, or just a burden? When I mentioned a solid course in phase 2, I was thinking of something like , let's say, Genki for Japanese.

3. Specifically, for French and Russian, what do you think would be a good course for second phase? For French, is it FIA overkill given phase 1? Or, is it enough to use something like Grammaire Progressive, without audio? For Russian, any solid course with audio, or Penguin should suffice?

That's it for now. Thank you for your time, looking forward to see what answers I get (and just in case someone may wonder, I'm not a bot, although one advanced enough to write such a post would probably never admit it either).
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Re: Learning plan, opinions wanted

Postby leosmith » Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:12 am

Welcome!
1.
• You seem to put low priority on conversation (phase 4?). That would drive me nuts personally, and unless you plan mainly to read, I think you should start it earlier (phase 2).
• You also seem to put low priority on listening. You mention YT videos, which are good, but you should watch a ton of them through all your phases if that’s all you’re doing for listening.
• Regarding phase 1, I wouldn’t start reading stuff that I hadn’t already “mastered” the pronunciation for. I’m mainly talking about Assimil here; I don’t think listening to the dialogue once or twice is enough to start reading it, unless you’ve already learned basic phonology and gone through Pimsleur. I really think Assimil belongs in phase 2.
• I would skip the huge out of context wordlists, and instead, learn all the vocabulary from my other studies. That should be plenty.
• Like conversation, I’d start reading and writing in phase 2.

2. FSI could fit your definition of a solid grammar course, depending on the language.
3. The FIA videos are fantastic; I would use them as a listening resource, and rely on MT and perhaps a text like Grammaire Progressive for grammar. For a solid Russian grammar course, I’d use Penguin, and rely on other sources for listening practice.
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Re: Learning plan, opinions wanted

Postby LupCenușiu » Thu Jun 23, 2022 6:07 am

Thank you for your answer (and welcoming), leosmith.


1.
• You seem to put low priority on conversation (phase 4?). That would drive me nuts personally, and unless you plan mainly to read, I think you should start it earlier (phase 2).
• You also seem to put low priority on listening. You mention YT videos, which are good, but you should watch a ton of them through all your phases if that’s all you’re doing for listening.
• Regarding phase 1, I wouldn’t start reading stuff that I hadn’t already “mastered” the pronunciation for. I’m mainly talking about Assimil here; I don’t think listening to the dialogue once or twice is enough to start reading it, unless you’ve already learned basic phonology and gone through Pimsleur. I really think Assimil belongs in phase 2.
• I would skip the huge out of context wordlists, and instead, learn all the vocabulary from my other studies. That should be plenty.
• Like conversation, I’d start reading and writing in phase 2.


1. Yes, conversation was for phase 4. That's due to a combination of my reluctance to talk while I don't have enough vocabulary paired with ease of using it, and general personality. But perhaps you are right, and I should bite the bullet, hoping Assimil and Pimsleur are enough to get me through some basic chat, at the beginning. Noted, considering adding conversational component to phase 2.

Listening... I thought Pimsleur , the audio part of Assimil and YT videos cover that. You say I should get some more. Maybe some beginner podcasts, or slow news would do, until I get to phase 3 and start audio books? Will look into this.

I can definitely see Assimil being used after Pimsleur for a tough and completely unknown language, for both reading and listening reasons. I'm on the fence about using it like this for something less difficult, like a Romance, Germanic or even Slavic language. Mostly based on time usage, one lesson/day would make roughly 100 days of just Pimsleur and that sounds a bit like prolonging beginner's purgatory. So your point is that listening the audio part of Assimil (repeatedly, like professor Arguelles presented, on both his YT channel and old HTLAL) is not enough for proper reading of text until I have the basis established through Pimsleur and phonology. I feel like I should ponder this a bit more.

I was reading yesterday some posts about using programs for extracting vocabulary from certain books and sounds like a good alternative for standard Xk decks. Maybe I should do that instead of relying on wordlists. And hope it would cover the vocabulary core sooner than later.

Good point about reading and writing. I can see adding these in a staggered fashion. Like few lines of writing ( that's a must for Russian cursives anyway), and reading simple stuff . Might mitigate the perceived delay generated by using Pimsleur and Assimil consecutively instead of simultaneously, after all.

2.&3.

Thanks. Suggestions noted.
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Re: Learning plan, opinions wanted

Postby leosmith » Thu Jun 23, 2022 5:00 pm

LupCenușiu wrote:Mostly based on time usage, one lesson/day would make roughly 100 days of just Pimsleur and that sounds a bit like prolonging beginner's purgatory.

When I do Pimsleur, I type out the dialogues and feed unknown words/tricky sentences into anki. I feel it is ok to read these at this point, because Pimsleur really makes the pronunciation stick. Also during this stage, I do a lot of listening. So although it's mostly based on Pimsleur, I'm actually doing listening, speaking, writing, reading, vocabulary, grammar and pronunciation.

Regarding the 90 days (3 levels X 30 lessons), although I've done this many times, I now prefer to do less Pimsleur. I did 20 days total with Brazilian Portuguese, then dove into conversation, and that turned out well because I'm an advanced Spanish speaker. ymmv
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Re: Learning plan, opinions wanted

Postby Cavesa » Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:48 pm

Welcome to the forum! It's great to have a Romanian native and someone of your nature around!

LupCenușiu wrote: I intend to improve my foreign languages knowledge, both by resurrecting and augmenting a few learned years ago (mostly in school or not in an organized manner) and by learning a few more. So, I tried to devise a plan that can be applied as a general guide, regardless of language . I am perfectly aware that there is no perfect plan (hence I write this one on a forum and not on two big stone tablets), that everyone learns in a different manner and that, probably, the answers to my questions placed at the end of this post can be found somewhere here and/or on HTLAL.

This is the main challenge and weakness of the general plans. Not just each learner is different etc, but the resources available are different. Even assimils are differently good for each language. And in some you, have better alternatives, in some you don't.
1. What is your opinion about this? Am I missing some obvious thing that should be a part of it? Too superficial? Too complex? Redundant parts? Balance issues? Dubious order?



The plan has 4 phases, looking like this:

Phase 1: initial contact
Phase 2: base consolidation
Phase 3: improved input
Phase 4: output

Sure, why not. One of the various good ways to sort learning into phases. However, I am a bit worried this might leave a huge gap at the intermediate phase, where you are not just consolidating the base, but still learning a lot, but a lot of the stuff ou probably want for phase 3 and 4 is rather frustrating. Perhaps you'll add some more steps in between, to not face such a steep learning curve.


Phase 1The purpose is to get acquainted with the language (or act as a refreshing phase for a forgotten one). Goal: decent pronunciation, basic vocabulary, general familiarity with the language.
Tools: some YT videos about pronunciation, phonemes, language rhythm. Pimsleur 1-3, Assimil, 50languages.com site. Start with learning the writing system (if is a new one), sounds of language, then use Pimsleur + Assimil, and include extra vocabulary from 50languages. For a forgotten language, 2 lessons/day each. For a new one, if is really difficult, starting Assimil +50languages after finishing Pimsleur, else 1 lesson/day of each. Getting new words into ANKI. As a supplement, YT videos in the target language, increasing duration and trying to pick some topics I'm interested in (this doesn't count as learning, just additional enforcing of core method).

I think the resources teach much more than "general familiarity". And they are overall good, especially Assimil. I am not a fan of Pimsleur, but I see why some people find it good. Even though the happy users tend to be 1.total beginners (which is not your case in the first three languages on your profile), and 2.anglophones. You are not one, so I think you don't really need this approach, especially to the romance languages, as you know a related one. But if you like the program, it can surely bring some value. About 50 langauges: I have never really found why it is so popular. For languages with few resources: sure, good. But for the very popular ones, there are bettter things.


Phase 2
The purpose is to expand over the base of phase 1. Goal: supplement vocabulary and get a grasp on grammar.
Tools: Michel Thomas (if available), one solid course covering grammar, a core 5k vocabulary deck. Start with MT then work through that course, while completing vocabulary with the words unknown (expecting 1-2k are already acquired from phase 1). Most likely, Iversen lists to learn them, ANKI to fixate in memory. Continue with videos as supplement.

The vocabulary part sounds good. But how do you want to expand on Pimsleur and Assimil with MT, which is much more basic? More or less Pimsleur. One solid course is good (perhaps more one series of good courses, as they tend to be split in more levels).

Phase 3

Ideally, at this point can ditch training wheels, and focus on native content reading. Not much to say about it, internet articles followed by books, trying to keep topics I'm not interested in to a minimum. Also, that's the place where I intend to experiment a bit with L/R, I found the discussions about this method quite interesting.


For most people, it is not a binary decision to drop the training wheels or to keep them. It is sort of a hill climb, I find this metaphore more precise. You choose the steepness (and websites are not necessarily easier than books, it all depends), the pace, and it sometimes goes easier and sometimes slower. LR is surely an interesting idea to try. But whether or not you like it, just devouring tons of content in any manner will work!


Phase 4
With a decent base built on input, output has to be trained. The details are still TBD, I like to go one step at the time, so I paid more attention to the first 2 phases.

Yep, I see what you mean. And I sort of agree that it is often reasonable to first learn and then practice in the outside world. I just recommend being acitve and doing "output" in the previous phases too. Do your grammar exercises both out loud and in writing, focus on active recall and not just passive recognition in Anki, repeat after audio, react to it, etc. It helps.


2. Heard some good things about FSI/ DLI. However, I believe courses are a means to an end, and while I read some very interesting stories of people chewing through half of library of courses, I have no intention to try to duplicate their feats. So, is there a place for this type of courses in the plan? Would be an improvement, or just a burden? When I mentioned a solid course in phase 2, I was thinking of something like , let's say, Genki for Japanese.

Yeah, something like Genki, or any other good quality modern course will serve. FSI/DLI are still a good choice in case of a language lacking resources. But I find that the issues due to the age of the courses in some ways outweight the quality. Perhaps the best would be picking a high quality monolingual series of courses.


3. Specifically, for French and Russian, what do you think would be a good course for second phase? For French, is it FIA overkill given phase 1? Or, is it enough to use something like Grammaire Progressive, without audio? For Russian, any solid course with audio, or Penguin should suffice?

About Russian:no clue

About French: Grammaire Progressive is awesome and comes with audio. You might also profit a lot from Vocabulaire Progressif and Communication Progressive. The rest is not that great imho, but these three series are wonderful. Again FIA: you are not a complete beginner (and definitely won't be in phase 2) and you are native Romanian speaker, you don't really need it imho.

That's it for now. Thank you for your time, looking forward to see what answers I get (and just in case someone may wonder, I'm not a bot, although one advanced enough to write such a post would probably never admit it either).
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Re: Learning plan, opinions wanted

Postby RyanSmallwood » Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:22 pm

Its a bit tricky to give feedback not being completely sure which languages you plan on studying and what your priorities are. But anyways here are some general thoughts.

Pimsleur and Michel Thomas both are suitable for beginners, I don't focus on speaking as much, but when I used to I found they complimented each other well and would usually alternate between them.

50languages.com isn't useful for all languages, the main points I've found it useful for are 1) Doing L2->L3 language study, 2) For starting studying distant languages because the dialogs don't grade up in difficulty very quickly so it can be an easier starting point than other courses.

Assimil is better for closely related languages, I find some language-specific courses are sometimes better than it, but its a good supplement if you know French and want to avoid using English based courses (or their other bases if they are available and fit your languages). Its a good option, but I'd always look for something better first.

FSI I find is most helpful for studying distant languages which I find most standardized beginner materials like Assimil teach very poorly. For closely related languages its probably overkill and there's more interesting options, but I'd still use the phonology drills if available. DLI tends to be a bit less user friendly in my experience, but it might be helpful if you're having trouble finding advanced beginner/intermediate audio for your TL. I like to remove the pauses in audacity and use it like an Assimil-type course, because over-drilling is not considered an effecient main method in current language pedagogy, but it can be useful in certain scenarios.

I find pre-made 5k type Anki decks can be useful if they have full sentences and audio and are well graded. It kind of depends on your other study materials and schedule/preferences on if you should use them.

French in Action videos are great and should be used, I don't know if the full course is necessary if you're using other stuff, but definitely watch and re-watch the videos if you're learning French.

Listening-Reading can be used at the beginner phase if you're studying a closely related language. I would try it as a relaxing activity after you're done with more intensive study methods. At the beginning I would just try repeating the early chapters until you get used to the narrator's voice and when you feel like it starting becoming easier to hear you can try continuing with the book.
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Re: Learning plan, opinions wanted

Postby LupCenușiu » Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:20 pm

Thank you for answers and advices Cavesa and Ryan.

To clarify some details. I picked Pimsleur, because is pure audio, and due to how it works, it forces you to produce a beginner form of output. With French - a language I never studied formally- I can get away to a certain extent, reading comics, even casual books (like SAS series- some pulp fiction combined with James Bond, or SF like Brusollo). Same goes for watching dubbed shows that I am already familiar with. But the output is nonexistent. And knowledge of grammar, flimsy at best. There is only so far I can go taking advantage of "Romance bonus", getting the main idea of a text and such. Because I don't like building on shifting sands, going through some basic courses at faster than advised speed might consolidate better fundamentals. As for why associating 50languages with better choices (like Pimsleur or Assimil)- the decision was based on two criteria: it has audio and has the same content across languages ( so should work the same as an added vocabulary source).

Michel Thomas is supposed to work as an introduction to grammar (a part not directly approached by either Assimil or Pimsleur ). Plus, again, audio ( fit for "dead moments", like walking, cooking, and such). The reason is placed after Pimsleur is because, from what I heard, the pronunciation in the course is not really something you should follow, so I prefer practicing that with more trusted sources.

I like the hill climb analogy, Cavesa. Is true, I don't expect to pass a strict binary border at some point. But had to define some limits, after all, even on a hill's map you have some contour lines. :D

Output early, yes, you're enforcing the advice leosmith gave me. So is added in small doses from the beginning.

So far working my way through Pimsleur. 1 lesson/day Russian ( the language is not completely unfamiliar, we have around 12% of the vocabulary with Old Slavonic or other Slavic origins, traveled to Ukraine a few times, Cyrillic alphabet is easy...), 2/day French because this language needs refreshing and gap-filling rather than learning from scratch. Also, I truncate the silence in Audacity after and write, not a transcript, but some sort of minimal vocabulary/ phrase pattern list, to practice typing (and handwriting Russian cursives). While at it, reading them aloud once, too. I looked into FSI phonology, it seems it requires to be in front of the computer too, so will see how I push it into the schedule.

Noted technical advices. Grammaire Progressive (and perhaps some supplements) are great, FSI might be used as extra ( after I'm done with Pimsleur into Assimil phase), FIA I have to test them for a while :) , might try some sort of lite L/R for French to see how it goes.
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Re: Learning plan, opinions wanted

Postby leosmith » Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:11 am

LupCenușiu wrote:the pronunciation in the course is not really something you should follow

Agreed! Otherwise, and excellent course though.
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Re: Learning plan, opinions wanted

Postby RyanSmallwood » Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:30 am

LupCenușiu wrote:Michel Thomas is supposed to work as an introduction to grammar (a part not directly approached by either Assimil or Pimsleur ). Plus, again, audio ( fit for "dead moments", like walking, cooking, and such). The reason is placed after Pimsleur is because, from what I heard, the pronunciation in the course is not really something you should follow, so I prefer practicing that with more trusted sources.


Its good to be concerned with proper pronunciation habits, and when I used Pimsleur and Michel Thomas together I definitely started with several Pimsleur lessons before going into Michel Thomas. But Pimsleur focuses on pronunciation very heavily in the beginning, and Michel Thomas isn't long enough of a course that its likely to ingrain any bad long term habits into your head. I found starting with Pimsleur for some of the core components of a language, then doing some Michel Thomas, and going back to Pimsleur to drill/correct more properly, I didn't have many issues picking up improper pronunciations.

The reason I suggest them in parallel, is that while Michel Thomas covers more grammar concepts, Pimsleur covers way more vocabulary and sentences overall. Michel Thomas gives a good framework for thinking about and using grammar without loading you with the vocabulary linguists use for talking about grammar. Pimsleur will cover some basics of grammar but more by rote memorization. So if you wait until you finish all of Pimsleur to do Michel Thomas you will have already learned most of the early grammar concepts "the hard way" so to speak. When I used them in alternation I found Pimsleur set me up for better pronunciation habits and trained me to be able to pull out basic sentences more quickly and automatically, then going to Michel Thomas to get more tools to think about the language and understand how it works, then back to Pimsleur to keep getting better pronunciation habits and drill the the stuff I learned until it was more automatic. Its also fun to kind of "cheat" and learn ahead of both of the programs, so in Michel Thomas when they have the two slow student learning with it you can be like "hah, I can respond more quickly because of my Pimsleur drills" and then when you go back to Pimsleur and they just tell you to repeat something a certain way with no explanation you can be like "hah, I understand why it works this way because of Michel Thomas". So they compliment some of each other's weaknesses and learning things in different ways and contexts helps them sink in better, and makes both programs based on testing you a lot more fun to use because you get more things right more quickly.

Obviously there's not one way to do it, and I'm sure people have had success using them in different orders, but that's my experience. Also for the more recently made Michel Thomas courses not taught by him but using his method they usually have a native speaker on the tapes so pronunciation isn't as much an issue as in his original recordings.
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