How do I build (French) listening skills?

[aronald]

Pretend you are saying the words that you're hearing instead of "trying to keep up". This will keep your brain moving forward with the language instead of getting caught up with the meaning of the words and feeling like you're falling behind. I accidentally started doing this one day and it was an eye-opener for me.

What do you find happened when you do this?

I've just started trying this and found it helpful. @aronald, how long did it take you to start "getting good" at this accidental discovery? I can tell it's helpful right away, but it may take some time to turn it into a habit.

I think you actually get good immediately (within a few hours), but the key is to consciously do it when you're listening or else you fall into the trap of just letting words wash over you. The nice thing is that I find this method easy to do even when I'm focusing on something else like work. So it doesn't steal my attention or require 100% focus or anything. As far as habit goes, when I'm practicing listening this way then my listening improves across the board, but if I get lazy for a while and go back to listening and letting words just pass by then I notice my listening comprehension starts decreasing. Luckily, once you listen in this way for several days then your brain seems to speed up considerably and your comprehension improves without even realizing it and you feel like you're not even trying to keep up anymore and everything feels normal.

[Le Baron]

but if I get lazy for a while and go back to listening and letting words just pass by then I notice my listening comprehension starts decreasing. Luckily, once you listen in this way for several days then your brain seems to speed up considerably and your comprehension improves without even realizing it and you feel like you're not even trying to keep up anymore and everything feels normal.

The position seems to be that by not focusing on comprehension (the meaning) at all, the comprehension improves without one realising it. I confess I'm sceptical about this. I assume that you are otherwise discovering the actual meanings of words? Since just repeating sounds can't reveal the meaning of them, especially non-intuitive ones. Everyone has fluently repeated words and phrases as a child (and adult) without ever knowing the meaning until it was revealed.

What am I not understanding about this? Perhaps I'm missing some step or key idea?

[DaveAgain]

What am I not understanding about this? Perhaps I'm missing some step or key idea?

Pretend you are saying the words that you're hearing instead of "trying to keep up".

This sounds a little like shadowing, but without speaking aloud.

[aronald]

This sounds a little like shadowing, but without speaking aloud.

I agree. It's like the listening version of shadowing.

[luke]

This sounds a little like shadowing, but without speaking aloud.

I agree. It's like the listening version of shadowing.

And it's capturing the "you are the narrator" perspective, and that's key. One can shadow aloud or listen without feeling like the narrator. So, listen like you're the narrator is an innovation to me.

But you guys are smarter than me and were probably narrating from the get-go when you began shadowing.

[Le Baron]

And it's capturing the "you are the narrator" perspective, and that's key. One can shadow aloud or listen without feeling like the narrator. So, listen like you're the narrator is an innovation to me.

But you guys are smarter than me and were probably narrating from the get-go when you began shadowing.

I don't want to risk jabbing at this and annoying anyone, but I don't see how you can narrate anything when someone else says the words first - which means you're always keeping up, but one step behind - and you don't know the meaning of what is being said. Narrating is the act of relating information.

If it's a form of shadowing then okay, this works for pronunciation, but not for understanding content. I can e.g. repeat the word utique (Latin) as much as I want, but only looking it up tells me it means 'in any case/at any rate/certainly'.

[luke]

One can shadow aloud or listen without feeling like the narrator. So, listen like you're the narrator is an innovation to me.

I don't see how you can narrate anything when someone else says the words first - which means you're always keeping up, but one step behind - and you don't know the meaning of what is being said. Narrating is the act of relating information.

That's part of why I consider aronald's discovery an innovation. Shadowing is not limited to stuff you don't understand. One can understand everything and still shadow a work. One can understand everything and shadow a work and still not behave as the narrator, breathing life into a story.

On the listening front, the same thing. Once can listen to and understand a story and still not have the perspective that they are breathing life into the story.

It's a small bit related to "active vs passive listening", but even there, one can actively listen to a story and not be experiencing it like they are the narrator. To me, this "listen as if you are the narrator" is extra-active listening.

Finally, even if one knows and says all of the words, that still doesn't preclude the possibility that one is "not tuned in" to what they're doing. Perhaps the experience of reading a paragraph or a page - even in one's native language - and realizing you've daydreamed through it is less common than I imagine. It happens to me and I've heard others mention this experience (or non-experience) before.

(In his recent posts, aronald is broadening the applicability and saying that even if you don't understand everything, the "narrator" perspective is helpful, which makes sense to me).

[Le Baron]

Yes I see that is the premise, but what is it that is supposed to be happening apart from saying what the actual people talking are saying? What is the innovation?
The initial mention above turned on the claim that you 'see improvement immediately'. Improvement of what? Because it certainly can't be knowing what the words mean. And if it is improvement of pronunciation, then it's shadowing.

I really hate when I don't get these things.

[german2k01]

To me, this "listen as if you are the narrator" is extra-active listening.

How is it different from listening to something while walking? At least I feel like the narrator is throwing words at me like throwing a ping pong ball against the wall which is completely a totally different experience from listening to something in a static state. I combine both forms of listening whenever I can as it engages different kinds of concentration levels.

[DaveAgain]

And it's capturing the "you are the narrator" perspective, and that's key. One can shadow aloud or listen without feeling like the narrator. So, listen like you're the narrator is an innovation to me.

But you guys are smarter than me and were probably narrating from the get-go when you began shadowing.

I don't want to risk jabbing at this and annoying anyone, but I don't see how you can narrate anything when someone else says the words first - which means you're always keeping up, but one step behind - and you don't know the meaning of what is being said. Narrating is the act of relating information.

If it's a form of shadowing then okay, this works for pronunciation, but not for understanding content. I can e.g. repeat the word utique (Latin) as much as I want, but only looking it up tells me it means 'in any case/at any rate/certainly'.

Shadowing works for listening too. So to see an instant improvement in understanding you must have a degree of reading skill already.