Intensive listening

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BeaP
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Re: Intensive listening

Postby BeaP » Fri May 13, 2022 2:26 pm

This is not specific to this thread.
Is xyz possible in abc time?

For whom?

Yes, it's possible for people who:
- know exactly what to do because they're experienced learners
- know how to do their research
- know how to ask questions and give the necessary details (like language, circumstances, available resources)
- at least come back to read the comments and answer the questions
- know which advice to follow (because of knowledge or intuition)
- know how to recognise when they can't control things any more and turn to a good teacher

It's not possible for everyone else.

In my opinion lusan's comment was benevolent (even kind). He's a native Spanish speaker, which can cause cultural differences. I'm always sad when long-time members with useful contributions get criticised because of the supposed emotions (or discouragement) of people who don't seem to care. (Again, I'm not talking about the OP of this thread, who might come back to answer jackb's and lusan's comment. It's just a tendency I've recognised. It started a long time ago and surfaced in the 'French C2 in one year' thread.)
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Re: Intensive listening

Postby Cavesa » Sun May 15, 2022 11:35 am

Nicola1990 wrote:How can a highly motivated student go from A1 to B2+ in listening-speaking in 100 days if he\she devotes 70 hours a week to guided listening and speaking and if she\he already has a B1 in reading comprehension?


Welcome to the forum, Nicola1990. It will be hard, but it is far from impossible to take such a leap in a few months, I've recently done something similar (from rusty A1 to certified B2 in five months, but at a much lower intensity). However, I would like to point out a few things:

1.I don't think you should divide it just like "B2+ in listening-speaking", the skills are not that separate from each other. You cannot get to such a level without also B2 reading, without some ability to write, without a solid B2 base in grammar and vocabulary. While a listening and speaking heavy routine is a good idea, it cannot be the only thing you do. And wth is "guided listening"? Like listening while also paying a teacher to listen with you (and basically do nothing, while getting your money)?

2.70 hours a week are a lot, but it is possible. Even 30 a week would be a lot, but could suffice already. One of the good ways to go about it is to divide the time into more energy consuming activities, and the more leisure ones. Typically, working with a coursebook is one of the more energy demanding ones. Watching a tv series is one of the more leisure ones.

3.As you choose to define your goals with the CEFR (it is not the only way, but it does have some advantages), I definitely recommend to make one CEFR organised coursebook series one of your main tools. That way, you will not run in circles and will know what you'll need to have covered. But of course you'll need more than that, especially around the B2 level.

4.Prioritize. I suppose you need this within the time frame (that's my first instinct, based on experience, not looking for some foolishness without purpose). So, if you need to pass an exam, it will need to reflect in your methods at least in the last month of this plan (there is no point to focus on it right away, long before you have the level). If you need the language for your job, you'll need specific resources, such as textbooks or videos used by native people studying your field. You won't be great at everything. But some things that really pay of no matter what is the goal: very strong grammar base, good vocabulary, good pronunciation.

5.Nope, you don't need to live in the country speaking your TL. This sort of immersion is actually rather overrated (as proven by the usual results and slow pace of progress of most immigrants). But you need to create a more intensive routine for yourself. Coursebooks and such stuff are just one part. Tons of tv shows, books, and similar things will be necessary from B2 on (as you mention B2+).
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Re: Intensive listening

Postby Cainntear » Sun May 15, 2022 7:45 pm

Sorry if I come across as cynical (I know, right? Me, cynical?) but this question looks suspiciously bot-like.

I've seen lots of questions that are similar in the sense that they're a single sentence "how can" question that is quite dense, and simultaneously both unusually specific and unusually vague. They're particularly common on Quora.com .

It's commonly believed to be some kind of bot training thing.

At the same time, I've noticed more and more sites appearing with a FAQ-like format which are so poorly coherent that it's quite clear that the content is harvested from somewhere.

For example, I looked up a certain "Hibernian Multilingual" after reading a post earlier on Reddit where he was mentioned -- was curious as to the cost of one of his products. I ended up on this page.
Could a human have written a page that starts with the line "He offers the following three tips to learning a language in three months:" and without any comment on who "he" is?

Then it flips onto a random comment about FSI, some random figures about times, the cost of the product in question, something about something the guy in question has said (and he still hasn't been mentioned by name!), something that says Javascript is easy to learn and public speaking is valued by recruiters and something incoherent and unrelated about Excel and PowerPoint, some random "a few months" questions; and then finally the name is mentioned, asking "Is Benny Lewis fluent? [sic]" with no language mentioned and no answer given. Then another few random semi-related questions, finishing with a video about telling stories to dogs with American Sign Language.

I believe this is the work of the sort of bot that asks questions like this one.


So if Nicola1990 is real, apologies for the cynicism, but I don't think it's worth answering questions that look like this. If there's no personal content, ask for clarification, and if the OP never returns to clarify, just walk away, because at best they've forgotten to come back, at worst they were just a bot to start off with.
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Re: Intensive listening

Postby Iversen » Sun May 15, 2022 8:12 pm

I'm not trying to debate whether the OP is a real human, but he/she (or 'it', if he/she is a bot) wrote one question and never waited for the answer. In the case mentioned by Cainntear there was a whole series of posts without much content, and then eventually a name was mentioned (without any garantee that the person in question had anything to do with the original question). I'm more inclined to think that posing a question and then hurrying on without waiting to see if there are any answers is a symptom of a lack of real commitment to the task - and maybe also a lack of interest in getting into the community here at Llorg. Anyway, we got a discussion of the learning speed that is possible - or maybe not. The thing I'm most disappointed about is that we never got to discuss of what intensive listening actually is.
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Re: Intensive listening

Postby Le Baron » Sun May 15, 2022 9:13 pm

Iversen wrote:The thing I'm most disappointed about is that we never got to discuss of what intensive listening actually is.

Well strictly from the OP question it involved going from A1 to B2+ in 100 days (nice round number....three months...and a bit) using something called 'guided listening'. It might be this which requires an answer: what is 'guided listening/speaking'?

In any case it was specifically starting out at 'B1 in reading comprehension'. I suppose the more obscured question was: to what extent will a B1 reading comprehension assist with getting me up to speed in listening/speaking. To which my answer would be: 'it will help'. Yet as we all know the difference between reading words and listening to words (unsupported by texts) can be quite a lot. Then speaking which is a different skill again. They share material, but don't always tie together so neatly.
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Re: Intensive listening

Postby BeaP » Mon May 16, 2022 4:36 am

I guess the situation described was something that can theoretically arise after completing a typical programme for self-study: the basics of grammar and some vocabulary are taught, but speaking and listening practice didn't happen. A strong B2 for a lot of people is basically fluency and the 'knowledge' of the language. How can it be attained after doing something like Duolingo?

'Intensive listening' for me here just meant a lot of listening, intensive studying: every day a lot. Guided listening: not just simply listening, but also doing exercises or at least having some strategy about how to work with a video, like watching it 3 times and taking notes after the first, switching on the subtitles after the second.

What does 'intensive listening' mean outside the context of the OP question? For me: Listening to something several times and examining it in detail, whereas 'extensive listening' is just listening a lot without really working with the texts.
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Re: Intensive listening

Postby Cainntear » Mon May 16, 2022 9:29 am

Iversen wrote:In the case mentioned by Cainntear there was a whole series of posts without much content,

You misunderstand. The bots ask questions on public forums and harvest answers — the page I linked to is an example of what they do later once they’ve harvested the answers.

The action of harvesting involves single questions, the action of publishing involves data harvested from multiple of these independent questions.
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Re: Intensive listening

Postby Le Baron » Mon May 16, 2022 11:31 am

STT44 wrote:It appears to be very common nowadays. What's worse is once these white belt users simply disappear after asking a random question, forum members spend the next month splitting hair and fighting amongst themselves on said question.

We're literally being played by robots.

However, it's not a great loss or a discussion into a black hole. Let the results be harvested and disseminated, because it's a discussion worth having, whether it is here or elsewhere. The catalyst for the discussion doesn't really matter.
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Re: Intensive listening

Postby tungemål » Mon May 16, 2022 1:34 pm

Wow! that page makes no sense.
I was only half aware of this phenomenon. I've encountered many websites that seems to be machine created, and sometimes machine translated to Norwegian. I'm guessing there must be tens of thousands of web pages like that? Obviously set up to generate income from ads. "how to"-pages probably has a bigger chance to turn up in google searches.

Anyway, to avoid the robots, can one way be to require new members to have one post under their belt before they can create new topics? They can use the first post to introduce themselves.

Cainntear wrote:Sorry if I come across as cynical (I know, right? Me, cynical?) but this question looks suspiciously bot-like.

I've seen lots of questions that are similar in the sense that they're a single sentence "how can" question that is quite dense, and simultaneously both unusually specific and unusually vague. They're particularly common on Quora.com .

It's commonly believed to be some kind of bot training thing.

At the same time, I've noticed more and more sites appearing with a FAQ-like format which are so poorly coherent that it's quite clear that the content is harvested from somewhere.

For example, I looked up a certain "Hibernian Multilingual" after reading a post earlier on Reddit where he was mentioned -- was curious as to the cost of one of his products. I ended up on this page.
Could a human have written a page that starts with the line "He offers the following three tips to learning a language in three months:" and without any comment on who "he" is?

Then it flips onto a random comment about FSI, some random figures about times, the cost of the product in question, something about something the guy in question has said (and he still hasn't been mentioned by name!), something that says Javascript is easy to learn and public speaking is valued by recruiters and something incoherent and unrelated about Excel and PowerPoint, some random "a few months" questions; and then finally the name is mentioned, asking "Is Benny Lewis fluent? [sic]" with no language mentioned and no answer given. Then another few random semi-related questions, finishing with a video about telling stories to dogs with American Sign Language.

I believe this is the work of the sort of bot that asks questions like this one.


So if Nicola1990 is real, apologies for the cynicism, but I don't think it's worth answering questions that look like this. If there's no personal content, ask for clarification, and if the OP never returns to clarify, just walk away, because at best they've forgotten to come back, at worst they were just a bot to start off with.
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Re: Intensive listening

Postby jeffers » Mon May 16, 2022 1:40 pm

tungemål wrote:Anyway, to avoid the robots, can one way be to require new members to have one post under their belt before they can create new topics? They can use the first post to introduce themselves.


This is a great idea, and would work well if the sign-up process forced them to write an introductory post or something like that. Or at least made it absolutely clear that they need to write a reply before they can start their own threads.

The problem is that I could imagine a genuine new member not realize that there was a prior requirement and getting frustrated when they couldn't create a post.
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