Intensive listening

Ask specific questions about your target languages. Beginner questions welcome!
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Re: Intensive listening

Postby MaggieMae » Thu May 12, 2022 4:37 pm

lusan wrote:Potential burn out.
There is so much the brain can take without resting.
Why the rush?


Or they could have a deadline or test approaching. We don't know everyone's situation here, so it's not fair to judge them on the spot. They could very well be under a time crunch. I know I am. It's not too unusual, either.
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Re: Intensive listening

Postby leosmith » Thu May 12, 2022 5:11 pm

MaggieMae wrote:
lusan wrote:Potential burn out.
There is so much the brain can take without resting.
Why the rush?


Or they could have a deadline or test approaching. We don't know everyone's situation here, so it's not fair to judge them on the spot. They could very well be under a time crunch. I know I am. It's not too unusual, either.

Agree with this. The OP has been duly warned of burnout, so let's not make him feel bad about asking the question. We are not Reddit. :lol:
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Re: Intensive listening

Postby Iversen » Thu May 12, 2022 7:43 pm

As others have said the proposed time scale is extremely unrealistic, so let me give my take at the listening technique itself instead (with a realistic activity level): stop listening for the meaning!

The first step is to be able to hear the words and phrases, and if you try to understand everything too early you can't concentrate on the parsing of words and phrases. I have called it "listening like a bloodhound" because a dog sticks its nose into the earth and follows a trail without caring about anything else. If you know enough words they will automatically pop up in your mind and eventually form meaningful structures - albeit with holes and and erroneous interpretations galore at first. If you don't have the requisite vocabulary then you can only make wild guesses based on the few words you do understand, but you don't learn to listen.

Once you have reached the step where you don't have to care about the auditive side any longer because that level have become automatized, it's about time to start listening for the meaning. And yes, this is not what people tell you to do, but you could try to do the bloodhound thing just a couple of hours each week - and then spend the rest of the time picking out single words from an incomprehensible soup as most sources tell you to do. Maybe the combination is what helps you to break the oral code.
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Re: Intensive listening

Postby lusan » Thu May 12, 2022 10:21 pm

MaggieMae wrote:
lusan wrote:Potential burn out.
There is so much the brain can take without resting.
Why the rush?


Or they could have a deadline or test approaching. We don't know everyone's situation here, so it's not fair to judge them on the spot. They could very well be under a time crunch. I know I am. It's not too unusual, either.


Though, I love judging since this is normal f or humans, I didn't do it this time.
I stated a fact. There is always need of resting for learning anything.
About the rush?
That is question. I just don't know and I didn't want to guess.

In another note, it takes 12 years for a teenager to speak at about, I guess, B2. It sounds a little extreme to do it overnight. I could be absolutely wrong, but it is a setup for exhaustion and disappointment.
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Re: Intensive listening

Postby MaggieMae » Thu May 12, 2022 10:47 pm

As a note, "Why the rush?" as you've written it, is (at least where I grew up) almost always said as a rhetorical question, or at least in a condescending tone, implying that there's no need to be going so quickly. That's why I reacted the way I did.

lasan wrote:In another note, it takes 12 years for a teenager to speak at about, I guess, B2. It sounds a little extreme to do it overnight. I could be absolutely wrong, but it is a setup for exhaustion and disappointment.


Teenagers take so long to learn it because they're also learning the concepts that go along with the words at the same time. B2 is the start of the more academically intensive levels.

I went from halfway through A2 to end of B2 German in 6 months (20 hours per week), while needing to learn all the grammar, mechanics, vocabulary, etc, so it's definitely possible in 100 days at 70 hours per week to catch up the speaking and listening, while you're moving up a level. They said they're already at a B1 Reading level, and that helps a lot. Is it easy? Absolutely not. It's one of the hardest things I've ever accomplished.

But the question wasn't about it being easy, rather about being possible. 70 hours a week is definitely a lot of work, but that's what the OP is planning for. At least in German, they say it takes about 150 hours of study per level, with all the grammar, vocab and other stuff OP already knows through reading. If OP is as dedicated as they say, I think they can do it in 3.5 months. They'll need a break afterwards, absolutely, but it's not outside the realm of possibility.
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Re: Intensive listening

Postby Le Baron » Thu May 12, 2022 11:23 pm

MaggieMae wrote:As a note, "Why the rush?" as you've written it, is (at least where I grew up) almost always said as a rhetorical question, or at least in a condescending tone, implying that there's no need to be going so quickly. That's why I reacted the way I did.

lasan wrote:In another note, it takes 12 years for a teenager to speak at about, I guess, B2. It sounds a little extreme to do it overnight. I could be absolutely wrong, but it is a setup for exhaustion and disappointment.


Teenagers take so long to learn it because they're also learning the concepts that go along with the words at the same time. B2 is the start of the more academically intensive levels.

I went from halfway through A2 to end of B2 German in 6 months (20 hours per week), while needing to learn all the grammar, mechanics, vocabulary, etc, so it's definitely possible in 100 days at 70 hours per week to catch up the speaking and listening, while you're moving up a level. They said they're already at a B1 Reading level, and that helps a lot. Is it easy? Absolutely not. It's one of the hardest things I've ever accomplished.

But the question wasn't about it being easy, rather about being possible. 70 hours a week is definitely a lot of work, but that's what the OP is planning for. At least in German, they say it takes about 150 hours of study per level, with all the grammar, vocab and other stuff OP already knows through reading. If OP is as dedicated as they say, I think they can do it in 3.5 months. They'll need a break afterwards, absolutely, but it's not outside the realm of possibility.


There are things to consider here though. You are (like I and others here have been) in the country of the language you are learning where the urgency is high and you are forced to actually use the language. This speeds things up considerably. Yet also depends on the motivation aptitude and developed learning skills of a person. A2 to B2 is one thing, B2 to the idea of C2 is something else. Also the point I have hammered on in this and other threads is that rattling through this examination system in quick smart time is not even - for most people, we have to discount the superheros - the acquisition of even the adolescent B2 quality level of native language. The vocabularies may be specialist, but watch how so often an advanced L2 speaker is defeated by a child, or someone thought to be pretty much unschooled and uneducated. It's a clue as to what 'learning the language' really means.

Now this isn't meant to be negative or dismissive or even to dissuade anyone. The point is that when you go that quickly through a process, you've missed a lot. You've met the criteria of a syllabus, but these are drawn up as a framework, not as an analogue of 15 years of language acquisition. L2 speakers are always artificial speakers at some level. What irons this out is time...experience and language in use in many situations over time. Always that. So when someone says zero to wherever in X amount of time. I say it's like imagining you're a doctor because you passed the undergraduate part. No sir, you're just starting with the newly-acquired framework. That's when it begins. This is why zero to C2 in one year is not what it's portrayed as.
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MaggieMae
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Re: Intensive listening

Postby MaggieMae » Thu May 12, 2022 11:46 pm

I think you're missing MY point in all of this. They aren't starting from zero. They're starting from a B1 understanding of the language.
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Re: Intensive listening

Postby leosmith » Fri May 13, 2022 12:42 am

Le Baron wrote:There are things to consider here though.

Do you really think it's impossible though? If not, assuming they were in some sort of emergency situation, how would you advise them to do it? I think that's what people are interested in here.
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Re: Intensive listening

Postby Le Baron » Fri May 13, 2022 1:25 pm

leosmith wrote:
Le Baron wrote:There are things to consider here though.

Do you really think it's impossible though? If not, assuming they were in some sort of emergency situation, how would you advise them to do it? I think that's what people are interested in here.

But I started the reply with the consideration that some are in that situation in an immersion situation and that it speeds it up.
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Re: Intensive listening

Postby Le Baron » Fri May 13, 2022 1:59 pm

MaggieMae wrote:I think you're missing MY point in all of this. They aren't starting from zero. They're starting from a B1 understanding of the language.

I'm not missing any points. The additional question of folks moving from zero to C1/C2 is present in the thread. B1 onwards is also a struggle, it's an intermediate level and the gap upwards from what is often a grinding plateau can be huge. Especially those who are competent at B1 reading, but not quite that in listening and speaking. There are always broad differences between students designated 'B1' (or any level).

I answered the question comprehensively regardless of whether it is from zero (wiping my eyes from laughter) or B1. It's hard and it is also traversing a narrow syllabus to pass an exam. I understand from reading your posts that you need a certificate for professional reasons, I understand that, many need one. If people just want to learn a language they don't really need to worry about exam names, they need to just get busy learning and spend less time on chit-chat about how to do things at the speed of light due to impatience. And also to get into their granite heads that a certificate doesn't mean the language has been mastered or they've necessarily become 'fluent'; certainly if it only took a year or less.

It's always going to be impossible to answer this from every angle because at every turn there are those offering exception after exception, saying 'but this is my particular situation! You're wrong!'. Here's the concise version:

1. If you're suddenly in a situation where you have to move to a foreign country and learn the language it can go many ways. If you already speak more than one language you might have an easier time. If you speak one closer to the TL, it may well be considerably speeded up.
If on the other hand you're a monoglot starting from scratch you have a hill to climb. Also I'm considering this as heavily focusing on one TL, not juggling many.

2. If you've been preparing for some time before you have to move you have a head-start. And yet it can also go several ways, You may be slower or faster at getting over the tiresome intermediate hump. Not considering these variables is naive.

3. In an immersion situation you'll be forced to learn faster and get more practise...every.single.day. The courses are also intense and practical. But they don't cover everything, the gaps get filled-in by long experience.

4. The alternative version is not being in a practical immersion situation. The heat is off, the chance for natural acquisition is considerably reduced so you have to work much harder to recreate it. If you're a superhero polyglot it may be speeded up, if you're a beginner and perhaps a monoglot beginner, it will be harder. The coveted trajectory to the C2 trophy will be very different for these situations, and even then its not even guaranteed for the more experienced learner.
In real life a lot of people go a year or longer to get from zero to B1 and considering the jump from there to C2 is more steep, the proposition above is not just doubtful, its heading towards ludicrous when considered as something applied to the majority.
Last edited by Le Baron on Fri May 13, 2022 9:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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