Audio sentences vs Without Audio sentences in Anki?

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Audio sentences vs Without Audio sentences in Anki?

Postby german2k01 » Fri Apr 22, 2022 8:42 am

I have a query. Do you find any advantage to using one over the other in terms of acquiring a language? Have you had any personal testimonials that support both merits or demerits of using either one? (Assuming you use SRS as a part of the language learning process.)

Thanks.
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Re: Audio sentences vs Without Audio sentences in Anki?

Postby Beli Tsar » Fri Apr 22, 2022 10:30 am

german2k01 wrote:I have a query. Do you find any advantage to using one over the other in terms of acquiring a language? Have you had any personal testimonials that support both merits or demerits of using either one? (Assuming you use SRS as a part of the language learning process.)

Thanks.

This needs to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis, I think. Keep the disadvantages in mind, and when the advantages outweigh them, use them!

The disadvantages of audio:
  • Time cost - the main demerit of audio, for me personally, is that reviewing extra time: the time to play back a sentence is longer than the time to read (generally speaking) so reviewing a lot of audio sentences takes a lot longer. This is not insignificant with a large deck.
  • Reviewing in public - it's harder to review audio cards with audio with people around. It's fine with headphones in, but it's surprisingly awkward if you are in a queue/at a bus stop/in a car and your phone suddenly shouts something in French or Farsi. This is a problem for me more often than you'd think, and a few cards mixed into the deck is enough to cause it...
  • Admin time - this is highly language-dependent, but adding audio is generally more work than plain text. If you have decent text-to-speech, it's not too bad (though it still some takes time and effort); if you don't, then it's potentially a massive drain on time, as you source audio/record audio/download from Forvo/whatever. The higher your standards for the audio, the bigger this problem is!
The advantages of audio
  • Training listening - this is obvious. If you need to work heavily on listening, it's very helpful; especially in languages that aren't orthographically transparent (even French). This is especially the case if you aren't using another intensive audio method (e.g. Ari's Chinesepod method).
  • Non-alphabetic scripts - I needed audio a lot of the time for Persian, since it's an abjad rather than an alphabet. There's a reason people learning character-based languages tend to use audio more, too. If I ever learn Chinese or Japanese I wouldn't be without audio.
  • Reinforcing learning - for sentences you struggle with, hearing in addition to reading can be a powerful reinforcement. It can really help cement cards that would otherwise be leeches. As well as simply adding it to the text card, you can also create notes that add an extra L2 audio-L1 text card (optionally or otherwise) that can be an extremely powerful reinforcement. I find this much more effective than adding images.
  • Pronunciation - beyond the advantages for pronunciation already implied above, audio gives the opportunity to shadow key sentences and sounds regularly.

Beyond this, there's the general idea that language is audio-first, not text-first, so there may be advantages to learning it that way.

My general philosophy is to keep everything as simple as possible, so I avoid using it where I can. But I am finding some French TTS cards useful, since my pronunciation and listening is terrible. Audio was invaluable for me doing Farsi - this was before decent TTS for Farsi, so it was far too much admin; but the combination of an abjad with a distant language that benefited from more reinforcement made audio key. Of course, individual word cards with audio can also be extremely helpful in these situations, and in most cases that's what I have used.

But learning Latin right now - I've no real use for audio. It would be far too much work, there's plenty of good listening practice available, and (if only because there are no native speakers) it follows simple rules and tends to be very easy to understand and to pronounce. If I get heavily into speaking Latin, then it might be worth adding a few cards to reinforce useful phrases, but otherwise it's a waste of time an energy.
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Re: Audio sentences vs Without Audio sentences in Anki?

Postby Gordafarin2 » Fri Apr 22, 2022 11:47 am

Most of my daily reviews are audio cards - I use a pack of sentences geared towards learners (Spoonfed Chinese, a popular pre-made deck) and Subs2SRS/Migaku cards mined from TV and movies. I particularly love those latter ones because it's listening to something close to natural speech - at full speed, with slurring and slang and accents and native intonation.

I started these early on with Mandarin - at the beginning I would drill multiple different cards of as many simple sentences as I knew, "What did you say?" "I don't understand" "Thank you" etc... and it helped me build listening skills right from the get-go. It's been immensely helpful for getting the hang of tones - and not only the tones themselves, but also the flow of sentences and how emphasis and emotion fit in.

With the languages that I learned in a classroom (high school & uni, so many years ago) I initially didn't focus on listening at all, and I ended up in the situation where the only person I could understand was my teacher. I was too used to learner-directed speech that was slow, clear, and standard accent. It took a lot of time to move past that.

I don't like using TTS, personally. I know the technology is getting better and better every year, but I don't want to model my pronunciation on a robot's and I don't find it pleasant to listen to. Either I'm mining a sentence from a video, and the audio is right there, or I'm mining it from somewhere else and it goes into my non-audio deck.

Beli Tsar is totally right about the potential embarrassment of reviewing in public :lol: I keep my audio cards in a separate deck, so I can review silently if I need to.
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Re: Audio sentences vs Without Audio sentences in Anki?

Postby RyanSmallwood » Fri Apr 22, 2022 12:50 pm

I find audio sentences way more helpful than any alternatives when available, it really helps me get the sentences stuck in my head. There may be some cases where it doesn't make sense, if you have to put a lot of time/work into getting audio for sentences, or if you're already at a high level of listening.
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Re: Audio sentences vs Without Audio sentences in Anki?

Postby jackb » Fri Apr 22, 2022 5:53 pm

I use a pack of sentences geared towards learners (Spoonfed Chinese, a popular pre-made deck) and Subs2SRS/Migaku cards mined from TV and movies.


I just looked up Mikagu (https://www.migaku.io/) and it looks pretty cool. If you've gone through the initial setup, why not use it for pretty much everything. One click Subs2SRS style cards w/audio combined with 1T sentences almost makes me want to give Anki another shot. I can see an avalanche of cards with that system though.
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Re: Audio sentences vs Without Audio sentences in Anki?

Postby zenmonkey » Fri Apr 22, 2022 7:17 pm

TTS add-ons are now much more mature in quality and ease of use (if still not perfect). So now almost all of my current Anki decks have audio. I used to go and download the Forvo files for my words or sentences but that is too time-consuming and inconsistent.

HyperTSS is a one-click sound file generation that is pretty good for a bunch of languages (using the Azure engine). I create the file when I create the card and done. I don't use on the fly TTS because a lot of my Anki practice is without a network.

Takes a few minutes to set up but does the job.
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Re: Audio sentences vs Without Audio sentences in Anki?

Postby german2k01 » Sat Apr 23, 2022 3:30 pm

I find audio sentences way more helpful than any alternatives when available, it really helps me get the sentences stuck in my head.


I am currently working with German audio sentences. I am pleasantly surprised to see how effective they can be even for intermediate or advanced students. The act of speaking/mimicking these sentences is really cementing them in my head subconsciously. Even the grammar.
It is like working with a personal tutor or a conversational partner. I am noticing how easy it is for me now to speak full-fledged sentences even without thinking about grammar. I will keep working with them over the course of months just to assess if they have any noticeable influence on my speaking fluency.
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Re: Audio sentences vs Without Audio sentences in Anki?

Postby einzelne » Sat Apr 23, 2022 9:51 pm

I don’t use audio sentences with Anki but I simply added them to my music app and use the shuffle option. It worked great but it’s too time consuming to cut relevant sentences from audiobooks. I wish there was an app to automate this.
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Re: Audio sentences vs Without Audio sentences in Anki?

Postby zenmonkey » Sun Apr 24, 2022 1:34 am

einzelne wrote:I don’t use audio sentences with Anki but I simply added them to my music app and use the shuffle option. It worked great but it’s too time consuming to cut relevant sentences from audiobooks. I wish there was an app to automate this.


Try audacity https://manual.audacityteam.org/man/silence_finder.html
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Re: Audio sentences vs Without Audio sentences in Anki?

Postby sfuqua » Sun Apr 24, 2022 4:02 am

I generally use audio with all of my anki cards. I will admit to being annoyed at the cards sometimes for the reasons that Beli Tsar mentioned above. I sometimes disable the audio for a while to run through some cards quickly when I don't want to make noise. I like to review cards in the early morning before my wife gets up. I have a transcription of the L2 on the back side of my Russian cards right now, which at least suggests how to pronounce the L2 when I turn off the audio, even if it is very imperfect.
I don't see any problem with using modern tts for the voices. I generally use the google tts engine on android, or the espeak tts engine for languages that google doesn't support. espeak can be very unnatural, but it is the only thing I have for Irish and Icelandic that can produce language on the fly.
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