Is reviewing words via Anki a necessary Evil?

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Re: Is reviewing words via Anki a necessary Evil?

Postby Cainntear » Fri May 06, 2022 4:35 pm

The idea of a "forgetting curve" is not controversial -- the strength of a memory pattern declines based on time since it was last activated. This means that if you hear or see a word shortly after studying it, it will be "brighter" in your mind.

What's really interesting (to me) though is that SRS is based on the principle that the most efficient way to memorise things is to revise them just before they're forgotten, which is the opposite of what's being talked about here. So is this really recommending SRS, or advising against it? That's not clear.

To be fair, though, SRS was originally intended for filing away discrete memorised facts -- declarative memorisation, not procedural automation. Perhaps that means Anki is only really useful if we use it the "wrong" way anyway...?
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Re: Is reviewing words via Anki a necessary Evil?

Postby german2k01 » Fri May 06, 2022 5:10 pm

Perhaps that means Anki is only really useful if we use it the "wrong" way anyway...?


Not sure about this 100%. I wonder if listening to an audiobook in your target language might be beneficial when reviewing words via Anki simultaneously as it may increase the chances of encountering newly studied words in the wild. Hence, they will be "brighter" in your mind.

BTW, I read about some Chinese guy reaching B2 level in German in 6 months from ground zero. He was quoted by some other language learner on the LingQ language forum. He memorized 10000 words or (sentences? something along those lines) in Anki while listening to audiobooks in German at the same time. This example may or may not be true but it was quoted by someone else as far as I could remember.
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Re: Is reviewing words via Anki a necessary Evil?

Postby leosmith » Fri May 06, 2022 5:23 pm

german2k01 wrote:I wonder if listening to an audiobook in your target language might be beneficial when reviewing words via Anki simultaneously

I doubt it, since this activity is extremely passive; it hardly taxes your recall.
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Re: Is reviewing words via Anki a necessary Evil?

Postby mokibao » Fri May 06, 2022 7:57 pm

Worth keeping in mind is that Anki's default intervals are way too short, especially for passive recognition (TL into NL). Most people will remember huge amounts of stuff even after a month of inactivity.
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Re: Is reviewing words via Anki a necessary Evil?

Postby Cainntear » Sat May 07, 2022 1:33 pm

german2k01 wrote:
Perhaps that means Anki is only really useful if we use it the "wrong" way anyway...?


Not sure about this 100%. I wonder if listening to an audiobook in your target language might be beneficial when reviewing words via Anki simultaneously as it may increase the chances of encountering newly studied words in the wild. Hence, they will be "brighter" in your mind.

But that's still using SRS as I would call the "wrong way", in that you're effectively "revising early".

It either disproves the concept of SRS or it proves the point that SRS isn't for learning languages. I used to describe a lot of learning a language in a formal setting as a matter of memorising enough of the dictionary and grammar book that you're later able to teach yourself when you need it, and I still think that's a possible and valid approach -- get it in conscious, declarative memory so that you can train your procedural memory later. It just makes the question of what SRS is and how it works a little more complicated.
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Re: Is reviewing words via Anki a necessary Evil?

Postby zenmonkey » Sat May 07, 2022 2:51 pm

Agreed. the whole idea that there is a single, better place to learn with regards to declarative, procedural or working memory seems to still be unclear to me.

The little research that I read is very ... 'it depends'. I remember looking at this article a few years back suggests that individual differences in memory skills, stages of learning all affect acquisition. If I remember there was a relationship between declarative-learning ability and early acquisition (in the adult learner), and at later stages of acquisition, they found relationships between procedural-learning ability and acquisition.

There are several dozen research articles that support the idea that SRS is effective in learning vocabulary. Quality varies, believe what you feel makes sense.

Personally, I'm still using Anki - I've moved a bit away from using it as a single word learning testing tool but more and more as a prompter for productive output in the L2 - i.e. use 'this' word in a sentence, translate x phrase, etc. Or to listen to an L2 phrase repeatedly, etc. I still use it for single words but find that quite often I end up with stacks of leeches and no context as I get further along with a language. I find I need to use it as a contextual tool and then it is more effective for me. I'm sure I'm using it the "wrong way" too.
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Re: Is reviewing words via Anki a necessary Evil?

Postby leosmith » Sat May 07, 2022 3:44 pm

mokibao wrote:Anki's default intervals are way too short

Can you cite this?
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Re: Is reviewing words via Anki a necessary Evil?

Postby zenmonkey » Sat May 07, 2022 6:14 pm

leosmith wrote:
mokibao wrote:Anki's default intervals are way too short

Can you cite this?


There are a lot of people that find the default 1, 10-minute interval too short especially with the look-ahead function - there are several blogs and notes on Reddit for this. It depends personally if you are using this first period to learn the word, the structure of your cards, the experience you have with Anki, the retention rate you have, the script, the card type etc... you won't find the perfect good enough setting without testing for yourself.

My own settings are 1m 15m 1d 3d 6d (instead of 1m, 10m) with 10-minute look ahead. Which is the equivalent of 1m 5m if you had no look ahead setup. Depending on my (mis)use of the hard button, I get a lot of 8 minute reviews at first.

So overall the 'right' default intervals are really dependent on your own way of using the tool.
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Re: Is reviewing words via Anki a necessary Evil?

Postby leosmith » Sat May 07, 2022 8:02 pm

zenmonkey wrote:the default 1, 10-minute interval too short especially with the look-ahead function

I've never messed with these. Does the 1, 10 mean if you get it wrong you will see it again in 1 min, and if you get it right it will be in 10 min? And what is the look-ahead function?
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Re: Is reviewing words via Anki a necessary Evil?

Postby zenmonkey » Sat May 07, 2022 8:27 pm

leosmith wrote:
zenmonkey wrote:the default 1, 10-minute interval too short especially with the look-ahead function

I've never messed with these. Does the 1, 10 mean if you get it wrong you will see it again in 1 min, and if you get it right it will be in 10 min? And what is the look-ahead function?


The 1m is what you start with and get if you hit the "again" red button for an unlearned card, 10m is the "good" green.
In the settings, review, learn ahead minutes setting is how much Anki should look ahead (in minutes for any due cards) to show you cards that are going to be due soon.

If a card is due in 30 minutes and your learn ahead setting is 1 hr, you'll be shown that card. It makes sense to have some look ahead unless you plan to check in every 15 minutes. As default, Anki will graduate your card to 'learned' in a day. I don't like that and that's why my cards are set to 1m 15m 1d 3d 6d with graduation at 10 days. Anyway, it's a very personal choice. I can suggest that you take a look at this video to get how the settings interact.



Not that his settings are sometimes for languages and some are for medical stuff. The core message is "there is no right answer". For German my graduation was at 3 days. Again, depends on language and your own level and speed of learning...
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