Suggestions for Listening

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Carmody
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Suggestions for Listening

Postby Carmody » Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:20 pm

LeBaron wrote me a PM wherein he made many suggestions that I thought selfish to keep to myself. He has given me permission to share it with you all:

Listening help
Sent: Thu Jan 06, 2022 12:36 pm
From: Le Baron
Recipient: Carmody

Hello,
Your thread about listening interested me, because I've been recently helping someone with French listening in person, so it is at the forefront of my mind. This person might well be in a similar position to yourself: having become very competent at reading, but now having a disconnect between the written language and the spoken. If I'm wrong about that you'll tell me.

In any case, after also helping a few people in the past I've seen that the first port of call is to opt for things like TV series now that there are services like Netflix. I have to say that imo, even though it's always worth watching some there are drawbacks to watching this sort of scripted content exclusively. The main drawback is that it isn't natural speech. It might aim to replicate it, but it lacks many elements of natural speech. Chiefly the way people pause and falter and search for ways of expressing themselves.

When the average person talks they do something different than scripted characters, they don't have all the best words and phrases ready to deliver. Which is why listening to well-written drama can give a false impression of how the vast majority of people actually speak. So while the French will be good, it's a tall order for a learner to have it as a model. Even the average French native will be tongue-tied when quoting some resounding phrase a fictional character has said.

So to cut to the chase it's worth taking at least 50% (or more) of your listening from unscripted speech. It's difficult for some because the language-learning narrative these days it that you have to be 'drawn in by stories'. Hence the heavy focus on fiction and TV series'. Though I see you read quite a lot of non-fiction. There's also the obstacle that you might not want to drop straight into fully native material. So it's worth looking at learning materials that use unscripted interviews and discussion. If you look on YouTube for a user called "mike k warrington" (channel here: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... warrington) he has uploaded dozens of BBC language courses from the 70s/80s/90s. I was looking for Spanish, but among them I found the French courses, which are of excellent quality. They contain many interviews with ordinary people with different accents in different regions. I haven't listened to everything. There seems to be the pure listening material, but for some he's also uploaded the original lessons broadcast on the radio/TV, which go over the interviews and speech picking out difficult bits and then replaying them after explanation.

I listened to the audio for two late 70s courses called Sur le vif and Allez France, which I found neither boring nor artificial and I've been speaking French for a very long time. It's not super hip 2022 French, but it's good, ordinary standard French. I also listened to few bits of one called Franc Parler (Speaking Frankly, obviously the BBC's little pun!), which might be a little more advanced. I'm not saying you should run to these specifically, but these are good and if you can find other things like them you'll do well. Listening to them repetitively. Day after day so the patterns, pronunciations, turns of phrase, melody and prosody become very familiar to you. You read a lot, so more and more what you've read will jump out at you. Also the books for those courses seem to be on Archive.org (as borrow books) so you can even find transcripts for them. I pointed the person I'm helping to these and she's getting a lot from them.

Two last things. Do try radio material. Podcasts from places like France Culture, Rfi, RTS (Swiss Radio). Like you would in English choose only what would interest you, so you're not starting 'cold'. If you're interested in e.g. the History of Paris, such a podcast would feel much clearer and make more sense to you. Also not understanding a fair bit of it is going to be okay. Everyone seems to agree French is a murderous language to unravel aurally for learners. But any mist will clear.
Secondly, listen to interviews on YT. There are many interviews with famous people, some who speak French as a second language. Depending on your tastes (I prefer a lot of older culture) you can find a lot. There is an old French radio interview series in there called Radioscopie, you can also find an entire archive of it on France Culture's site. With people like Jeanne Moreau, Brigitte Bardot, Rene Goscinny (Asterix writer), Romy Schneider, Raymond Aron, Jacques Tati...but also people like Yul Brynner and Omar Sharif who were excellent French speakers. With one person mostly speaking you can concentrate better.

Remember that no matter how much you listen there will always be some gaps. When you read people on this site saying 'I aim to' or 'I can read/listen to 98%' or whatever, take it with a pinch of salt and move on. Understanding ordinary people talking is different than media. I can understand 99.9% of ordinary Dutch, by now, but when I go to the cinema I miss stuff in films. Just like I outlined further up above. It's totally normal.

I hope I haven't bored you or seemed patronising. I'd just like help anyone achieve something with less pain.

Le Baron.
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Re: Suggestions for Listening

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:42 pm

Thanks, Carmody, for, as the expression goes, sharing. Thanks as well to La Baron. Though understandable or interesting "unrehearsed" and/or unscripted audio may be more difficult to locate, and since I don't do a lot of looking, I'll take TSS42's word for it that it is, more grist for the mill is always good, as far as I am concerned. Now at the point of looking not to improve my French (or my Spanish), but rather just to enjoy the language, and certainly not to say everyone should be doing what I am doing, not at all, then for me the wider the net the better.
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Re: Suggestions for Listening

Postby Le Baron » Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:56 pm

TSS42 wrote:While the advice certainly is very valid, there are some practical problems. I have found that good quality and watchable scripted media (films, TV series etc) are very easy to find, and good quality and captivating unscripted media (eg reality TV) are incredibly difficult to locate and consume at a regular basis.

Even with a VPN, even for popular languages like German.

Admittedly I am very fussy about what I watch, which makes it more difficult than it should be.

The radio, podcasts from the radio (which can be subjected to repeated listening) are available for free. Lots of reality TV in many languages is all over YouTube. Also have a look here.

I think there may be over-dependence upon visual media. I know it is good to see as well as hear, but when you can listen and understand from only audio you tend to get good at listening. There's a reason people freeze when taking phone calls in a foreign language where they're not yet fully anchored; all the visual cues disappear and you have to understand just speaking. That's a real test.
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Re: Suggestions for Listening

Postby lusan » Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:38 pm

Le Baron wrote:
TSS42 wrote:While the advice certainly is very valid, there are some practical problems. I have found that good quality and watchable scripted media (films, TV series etc) are very easy to find, and good quality and captivating unscripted media (eg reality TV) are incredibly difficult to locate and consume at a regular basis.

Even with a VPN, even for popular languages like German.

Admittedly I am very fussy about what I watch, which makes it more difficult than it should be.

The radio, podcasts from the radio (which can be subjected to repeated listening) are available for free. Lots of reality TV in many languages is all over YouTube. Also have a look here.

I think there may be over-dependence upon visual media. I know it is good to see as well as hear, but when you can listen and understand from only audio you tend to get good at listening. There's a reason people freeze when taking phone calls in a foreign language where they're not yet fully anchored; all the visual cues disappear and you have to understand just speaking. That's a real test.


That's great site {zerotohero.ca}. Thanks.
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Re: Suggestions for Listening

Postby Le Baron » Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:43 pm

TSS42 wrote:Interesting link, I'll certainly have a look.

I avoid radio like plague because I avoid all news in all languages. I am very careful about what I put into my mind, and I don't allow random stuff to pollute my mental state.

Like I said, I'm fussy.

Fussy can be good. The radio isn't just news though. It's culture, education, comedy, drama, documentary, or just 'thoughts out loud'.

I do agree with the Henry David Thoreau sentiment that 'when you've heard about one dog killed on the railroad..' etc that you've heard it all and much of the rest is just repetition. However, some news is worth listening to. Learning how to be judicious, how to recognise what's what, is also part of listening I think.

I especially like listening to the opposite of my own opinion because it jolts you and makes you think harder about what you believe.
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Re: Suggestions for Listening

Postby golyplot » Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:59 am

It's probably worth listening to a nonzero amount of unscripted content, but overall I disagree. Surely the fact that people on TV speak clearly and don't stammer or make mistakes all the times would make it a *better* learning material, even if it weren't for the entertainment aspect.

P.S. As far as French being "a difficult language to unravel aurally" - maybe if you're comparing it to Spanish or something. But as someone who has studied both French and Japanese, I'd say the later was an order of magnitude harder to develop listening comprehension in, despite the fact that Japanese phonology is relatively simple. For native English speakers, similarity to English definitely matters more than anything else.
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Re: Suggestions for Listening

Postby einzelne » Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:23 am

TSS42 wrote:I avoid radio like plague because I avoid all news in all languages. I am very careful about what I put into my mind, and I don't allow random stuff to pollute my mental state.


When it comes to French, I have Radio France app on my smartphone — their programs never disappoint me: philosophy, science, history, literature, art...

Although, when it comes to everyday conversations, I really doubt radio is that helpful. You still listen to discussions of well educated natives and usually they discuss abstract and highly sophisticated topics. No way they can prepare you for a small talk in a bakery or car repair garage... TV shows, although scripted, are still closer to everyday conversations. Actually, I find radio way easier that TV shows or movies. Reality shows? Yes, they might be the closest to real speech but, boy, what a tremendous waste of time they are!
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Re: Suggestions for Listening

Postby luke » Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:03 am

golyplot wrote:It's probably worth listening to a nonzero amount of unscripted content, but overall I disagree. Surely the fact that people on TV speak clearly and don't stammer or make mistakes all the times would make it a *better* learning material, even if it weren't for the entertainment aspect.

I agree with your disagreement. Hearing articulate speakers in beginning through upper intermediate stages is a better idea, but it may depend on who you are and what you want. A young person who wants to meet people in bars may have different short-term aspirations than someone who's more mature. Similarly, someone who is in country may need to understand the butcher, the baker, and the candlestick maker, whereas someone learning for fun or broader horizons can save less polished speech for later.

That said, long form podcast interviews are good for intermediate and advanced stages. The dialogue can be very spontaneous and the articulation more natural.

As a learner, I want to know how to pronounce things correctly, as best as I can. As a listener and potential participant in conversations, I need to be able to understand how normal people talk.
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Re: Suggestions for Listening

Postby Kraut » Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:03 pm

like TV series now that there are services like Netflix. I have to say that imo, even though it's always worth watching some there are drawbacks to watching this sort of scripted content exclusively. The main drawback is that it isn't natural speech. It might aim to replicate it, but it lacks many elements of natural speech. Chiefly the way people pause and falter and search for ways of expressing themselves.


The most natural French I have come across is telephone pranks (canulars telephoniques) and I have spent hours transcribing some of them: Pierre Péchin, Thierry le Luron, Jean Yves Lafesse ... You can find tons of them online.

L’appel trop con de Rire & Chansons Compilation #1 | Nouveaux Appels de Farce Tous Les Jours !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoUJ60hcWf0
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Re: Suggestions for Listening

Postby Le Baron » Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:08 pm

golyplot wrote:It's probably worth listening to a nonzero amount of unscripted content, but overall I disagree. Surely the fact that people on TV speak clearly and don't stammer or make mistakes all the times would make it a *better* learning material, even if it weren't for the entertainment aspect.

P.S. As far as French being "a difficult language to unravel aurally" - maybe if you're comparing it to Spanish or something. But as someone who has studied both French and Japanese, I'd say the later was an order of magnitude harder to develop listening comprehension in, despite the fact that Japanese phonology is relatively simple. For native English speakers, similarity to English definitely matters more than anything else.

That's why I said about 50% of listening practise. It's all well and good having people speak in a highly structured way all the time, lots of people go for that. Then all over places like YouTube the same people complain they can't understand natural speech in cases where it is just ordinary people talking, even though they've seen '500 films'. Plenty of people learning English, which is very widespread, complain about this. The structured stuff is excellent for learning and listening and internalising patterns; the real speech is good for knowing what you're going to be getting most of the time in reality. You need both.

French is not hard for me personally to unravel aurally. I had the luck of having a Francophone mother, but from what I've seen over the years the majority of people find it quite hard to unravel compared to the written language. It's not unknown that the high rate of liason, of unstressed and unpronounced letters makes French particularly difficult for a mainstream language. In the case of Japanese this is more about general unfamiliarity (for those people further away from that language at any rate). For a learner within Western Europe or English speakers, the feeling seems to be that the disconnect between reading listening in French is quite high and in that sense it is not very similar to English at all.
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