I need your help with the place of "the third time"

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I need your help with the place of "the third time"

Postby michaelwwww » Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:39 am

Dear the one who is concerned,

Does it matter to place "the third time" in the beginning of a sentece or after a verb?Is it the same to say "The third time Jesus said to Peter XXX" as to say "Jesus said to Peter the third time xxx"? Does the grammar of English demands "Jesus said to peter the third time XXX" to mean the content of the third conversation is the same as the first two?
Your help is very much appreciated. Thanks!

Michael
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Re: I need your help with the place of "the third time"

Postby rdearman » Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:48 am

michaelwwww wrote:Dear the one who is concerned,

Does it matter to place "the third time" in the beginning of a sentece or after a verb?Is it the same to say "The third time Jesus said to Peter XXX" as to say "Jesus said to Peter the third time xxx"? Does the grammar of English demands "Jesus said to peter the third time XXX" to mean the content of the third conversation is the same as the first two?
Your help is very much appreciated. Thanks!

Michael

You have 2 sentences:
  1. The third time Jesus said to Peter XXX
  2. Jesus said to Peter the third time xxx
Both of these sentences mean The third time that Jesus spoke to Peter. Neither of them mean what I believe you want to say, which is that Jesus told Peter something three times. Those sentences would be.

Jesus said to Peter FOR the third time xxx
FOR the third time Jesus said to Peter XXX

With the addition of the word "for" you are indicating the repetition of the same thing. So if you want to say they are talking about the same thing, for the third time then use the word "for" to show this. If you want to say they are speaking for the third time, but not always about the same thing then either of your original sentences are fine.
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Re: I need your help with the place of "the third time"

Postby Iversen » Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:46 am

I can only add one thing to rdearman's answer, namely what I (as a non-native speaker of English) think you said with your own two sentences:

"The third time Jesus said to Peter XXX"
"Jesus said to Peter the third time xxx"
Jesus and Peter met three times (or something else happened three times), and the third time Jesus said this to Peter: "Gee, I haven't heard ye olde cocquerell crow yet, but now thou hast already betrayed me trice" (or the equivalent in Aramaic)

Actually both are in accordance with the biblical story, whereas Jesus would say the same thing three times if you introduce "for". But as far as I remember Jesus didn't say anything the first two times Peter disawowed his master. The main difference between the two sentences is that the number three is more significant when you put it in initial position (in the second version it could just as well have been the fourth time), but the actions illustrated are the same.
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Re: I need your help with the place of "the third time"

Postby Le Baron » Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:54 pm

On the third occasion...
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Re: I need your help with the place of "the third time"

Postby zenmonkey » Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:17 pm

The third time he met Peter, he said...
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Re: I need your help with the place of "the third time"

Postby michaelwwww » Tue Jan 25, 2022 3:38 am

Thank you everyone very much! Your replies are helpful!
I realize that some of you know Greek. The Greek sentence of "Jesus said to Peter the third time" is "λέγει αὐτῷ τὸ τρίτον· Σίμων Ἰωάννου, φιλεῖς με (Joh 21:17 BGT)". Could anyone who know Greek well tell me whether the Geek sentence means the same as its English translation? Or in fact the Greek sentence means that Jesus said to Peter the same thing as before?

Thank you all again!

Blessings,
Michael
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Re: I need your help with the place of "the third time"

Postby Herodotean » Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:56 pm

michaelwwww wrote:Thank you everyone very much! Your replies are helpful!
I realize that some of you know Greek. The Greek sentence of "Jesus said to Peter the third time" is "λέγει αὐτῷ τὸ τρίτον· Σίμων Ἰωάννου, φιλεῖς με (Joh 21:17 BGT)". Could anyone who know Greek well tell me whether the Geek sentence means the same as its English translation? Or in fact the Greek sentence means that Jesus said to Peter the same thing as before?


The Greek means "He says to him for the third time: 'Simon son of John, do you love me?'" (Your Greek text is missing a question mark: φιλεῖς με;) You could also translate τὸ τρίτον as "a third time."

It's clear from context that the same question, or almost the same question, is repeated three times:

15 Ὅτε οὖν ἠρίστησαν λέγει τῷ Σίμωνι Πέτρῳ ὁ Ἰησοῦς· Σίμων Ἰωάννου, ἀγαπᾷς με πλέον τούτων; λέγει αὐτῷ· Ναί, κύριε, σὺ οἶδας ὅτι φιλῶ σε. λέγει αὐτῷ· Βόσκε τὰ ἀρνία μου. 16 λέγει αὐτῷ πάλιν δεύτερον· Σίμων Ἰωάννου, ἀγαπᾷς με; λέγει αὐτῷ· Ναί, κύριε, σὺ οἶδας ὅτι φιλῶ σε. λέγει αὐτῷ· Ποίμαινε τὰ πρόβατά μου. 17 λέγει αὐτῷ τὸ τρίτον· Σίμων Ἰωάννου, φιλεῖς με; ἐλυπήθη ὁ Πέτρος ὅτι εἶπεν αὐτῷ τὸ τρίτον· Φιλεῖς με; καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· Κύριε, πάντα σὺ οἶδας, σὺ γινώσκεις ὅτι φιλῶ σε. λέγει αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς· Βόσκε τὰ πρόβατά μου.


The New Testament has been translated many times. If you don't know Greek very well, you can always compare several of the major ones and see where they disagree; if they all translate something the same way, you can be reasonably confident that it's an accurate reflection of the Greek.
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Re: I need your help with the place of "the third time"

Postby Cainntear » Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:53 pm

I would say that you haven't given us enough information to know what you are trying to say.

I would need to know the full sentence before commenting.
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Re: I need your help with the place of "the third time"

Postby Herodotean » Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:26 pm

Cainntear wrote:I would say that you haven't given us enough information to know what you are trying to say.

I would need to know the full sentence before commenting.


OP gave us the Greek sentence in question. See my post above for the full passage.
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Re: I need your help with the place of "the third time"

Postby michaelwwww » Thu Jan 27, 2022 2:53 am

Thank you all for your help!

Here is the full sentence of John 21:15-17 "Οτε οὖν ἠρίστησαν λέγει τῷ Σίμωνι Πέτρῳ ὁ Ἰησοῦς Σίμων Ἰωάννου ἀγαπᾷς με πλέον τούτων λέγει αὐτῷ Ναί κύριε σὺ οἶδας ὅτι φιλῶ σε λέγει αὐτῷ Βόσκε τὰ ἀρνία μου (Joh 21:15 WHO) λέγει αὐτῷ πάλιν δεύτερον Σίμων Ἰωάννου ἀγαπᾷς με λέγει αὐτῷ Ναί κύριε σὺ οἶδας ὅτι φιλῶ σε λέγει αὐτῷ Ποίμαινε τὰ πρόβατιά μου (Joh 21:16 WHO) λέγει αὐτῷ τὸ τρίτον Σίμων Ἰωάννου φιλεῖς με ἐλυπήθη ὁ Πέτρος ὅτι εἶπεν αὐτῷ τὸ τρίτον Φιλεῖς με καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ Κύριε πάντα σὺ οἶδας σὺ γινώσκεις ὅτι φιλῶ σε λέγει αὐτῷ Ἰησοῦς Βόσκε τὰ πρόβατιά μου (Joh 21:17 WHO)"

It seems to me that "the third time τὸ τρίτον" just means that it was the third time that Jesus said to Peter and did not necessarily mean that Jesus said exactly the same content. The reasons are as the following:

1) John 21:16 uses "πάλιν δεύτερον" to mean "the second time" or "a second time" but the content Jesus said to Peter this time "ἀγαπᾷς με (Joh 21:16 WHO)" is apparently different from the first time "ἀγαπᾷς με πλέον τούτων (Joh 21:15 WHO)".

2)Luke 23:22 "ὁ δὲ τρίτον εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτούς Τί γὰρ κακὸν ἐποίησεν οὗτος οὐδὲν αἴτιον θανάτου εὗρον ἐν αὐτῷ· παιδεύσας οὖν αὐτὸν ἀπολύσω (Luk 23:22 WHO)"has the similar expression "ὁ δὲ τρίτον εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτούς (Luk 23:22 WHO)" but it seems to mean that it was the third time that Pilate said to them. When I examine the context, Pilate said different words the third time compared to the first time as decribed in luke 23:14-16 "εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτούς Προσηνέγκατέ μοι τὸν ἄνθρωπον τοῦτον ὡς ἀποστρέφοντα τὸν λαόν καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἐνώπιον ὑμῶν ἀνακρίνας οὐθὲν εὗρον ἐν τῷ ἀνθρώπῳ τούτῳ αἴτιον ὧν κατηγορεῖτε κατ αὐτοῦ (Luk 23:14 WHO) ἀλλ οὐδὲ Ἡρῴδης ἀνέπεμψεν γὰρ αὐτὸν πρὸς ἡμᾶς καὶ ἰδοὺ οὐδὲν ἄξιον θανάτου ἐστὶν πεπραγμένον αὐτῷ· (Luk 23:15 WHO) παιδεύσας οὖν αὐτὸν ἀπολύσω (Luk 23:16 WHO)".

3)Matthew 26:44 "καὶ ἀφεὶς αὐτοὺς πάλιν ἀπελθὼν προσηύξατο ἐκ τρίτου τὸν αὐτὸν λόγον εἰπὼν πάλιν (Mat 26:44 WHO)"tells us that Jesus prayed the third time saying the same words "προσηύξατο ἐκ τρίτου τὸν αὐτὸν λόγον εἰπὼν πάλιν (Mat 26:44 BGT)". The author intentionally added "saying the same words" otherwise it seems that we don't know whether Jesus prayed the same words with "the third time" only.

4)Some noted scholars such as Dr. Marvin Vincent,Dr. Richard Trench,Westcott, Plummer and the leading living Koine Greek lexicographer J. A. L. Lee think that ἀγαπάω and φιλέω mean different things here. It seems so easy or simple to let "the third time" to have final say for the meanings of these two words because ἀγαπάω and φιλέω would mean the same thing if "the third time" means that Jesus said exactly the same thing as before.

What do you think? Any comment is welcome. I am a new hand. I know I should trust good English translations but have been suggested to study the original languages also so that I can have better understanding of the meanings of the text. Futhermore when I read some good commentaries of the text, I find the scholars aftentimes use the original languages to explain their comments. So I guess that I need to go to the original languages when necessary.

Blessings,
Michael
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