Spanish pronunciation question

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dklinker
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Spanish pronunciation question

Postby dklinker » Thu Dec 23, 2021 2:52 pm

Hi everyone.

I have a question for Spanish speakers about the pronunciation of 'r' fuerte and 'r' suave.

On several websites I've come across a rule that states one should always use an 'r' fuerte when the 'r' occurs between a consonant and a vowel.

I have been listening to words on google translate and I can clearly hear the 'r' fuerte in some words such as 'tristeza. However, in other words like 'madre', 'centro', and 'cartera', to my untrained ear, the speaker always seems to be using an 'r' suave.

After the letters 'd' and 't' do native speakers always use the 'r' fuerte or do they sometimes use an 'r' suave?

Thanks for the help.
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tarvos
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Re: Spanish pronunciation question

Postby tarvos » Thu Dec 23, 2021 3:27 pm

In "madre", there is probably some assimilation from the fact that the d weakens and fricativizes. It may depend on the regional accent, but I would trill this one I think. In "cartera", the -r is in syllable coda, so it's vowel + r, so it's a single tap. The trill is when the consonant comes first. Centro should definitely have a trill.

But in some cases, trills and taps may sound hard to distinguish. In some accents, that -r in cartera may sound like an l (caltera), think of Puerto Ricans.

The issue may be that your ear isn't trained very well to distinguish the subtleties of the trill and tap, which in practically all languages that have an alveolar r, are allophonic (I find them difficult too as a Dutch native speaker). Not so many languages make that distinction explicit the way Spanish does (or some variants of Portuguese). I think you might have to do some more phonetic training to distinguish them reliably.
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Re: Spanish pronunciation question

Postby Dragon27 » Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:05 pm

I'm not sure what is exactly meant by "r suave" and "r forte", so I'll just use the more familiar terms "alveolar tap" and "alveolar trill".
For simple rules you can just take the short synopsis from wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_phonology#Rhotics
Main points:
- between vowels "r" (tap) and "rr" (long trill, or geminate) are in phonemic contrast (pero vs perro)
- the trill after /l/, /n/, /s/ (alrededor, enriquecer, Israel), and word-initially (rey), and the tap in other word-initial clusters (tres, frío)
- in word-medial position after other obstruents mostly the tap (sobre, peligro), but the trill can occur if it begins a morpheme (subrayar)
- in syllable-final position usual the tap, but the trill can also occur, especially in emphatic speech (arma). In word-final position before a consonant both can occur (amor paterno), but only the tap before the vowel (amor eterno).

But bear in mind than in real-life speech and different dialects some patterns can become inaccurate
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Re: Spanish pronunciation question

Postby Querneus » Fri Dec 24, 2021 11:38 am

dklinker wrote:After the letters 'd' and 't' do native speakers always use the 'r' fuerte or do they sometimes use an 'r' suave?

We mostly use r suave / the alveolar flap. I actually find it it very difficult to use r fuerte / the alveolar trill in tristeza or madre.

I remember one time I really surprised a Polish speaker who was learning Spanish when I pointed out his constant use of the r fuerte / the trill after t/d/p/etc. (very natural to him due to his native language, I assume) sounded really off. :)

I'd like to add many dialects (e.g. eastern El Salvador, Santiago de Chile) use a devoiced flap in "tr", [tɾ̥], that can even be so "affricated" it may even sound vaguely like "ch", though. You might come across some such people eventually.
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FeoGringo
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Re: Spanish pronunciation question

Postby FeoGringo » Sun Dec 26, 2021 1:06 am

Ten Minute Spanish is my go-to for all things related to Spanish pronunciation.

These two videos are worth looking over:



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